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  • best season back then

    Who had the best all-round hitting season prior to 1900?

    1) Hugh Duffy 1894
    2) Tip O'Neill 1887
    3) Cap Anson, either 1881 or 1886
    4) Ross Barnes 1876
    5) other
    23
    Hugh Duffy, 1894
    30.43%
    7
    Tip O'Neill, 1887
    17.39%
    4
    Cap Anson, 1881 or 1886
    21.74%
    5
    Ross Barnes, 1876
    17.39%
    4
    other
    13.04%
    3
    "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

  • #2
    Buzz you probably know my answer already.

    In terms of dominating over his peers I would say Ross by far. However how strong was that league? I don't think it was that strong...

    I am not that impressed with Tip's 1887. Had he done that in the NL, I would be far more impressed.

    Cap's '81 is better than his '86. And I will say his '81 is very impressive.

    However in the end, I am going to have to stick with my man Duffy. But you already knew that didn't you Buzz?

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, I knew that. My memory's alright. Duffy was the best looking of the bunch, anyhow. Don't know if I agree with Anson's 1881 as better than 1886. Ok, he hit .399 in a .270 league versus .371 in a .274, but in 1886 he drove in 147 runs in 125 games for a team with no real power (but who had it back then anyhow?)
      "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
        Yeah, I knew that. My memory's alright. Duffy was the best looking of the bunch, anyhow. Don't know if I agree with Anson's 1881 as better than 1886. Ok, he hit .399 in a .270 league versus .371 in a .274, but in 1886 he drove in 147 runs in 125 games for a team with no real power (but who had it back then anyhow?)
        The RBI total in '86 is insane. Buzz, I know you like BP's translated stats and they have him for 181 in '86 VS 159 in '81. He was a RBI machine despite not having too much power. I still like his '81 though. He was so heads and shoulders above his peers that year it wasn't even funny. Nobody was close. Not King, not Dunlap, not even one of your favorite, Mr. Brouthers.

        I would rank them

        1. Duffy
        2. Pop's '81
        3. Ross
        4. Tip
        5. Pop's '86

        Comment


        • #5
          Where would you guys rank Sam Thompson?

          In 1895 he hit .392 with a .430 obp% and hit 18 hr's with 165 rbi's...

          In 1894 he hit .407 with a .458 obp% with 13 hr's and 141 rbi's in only 99 games...

          Thompson has the top 2 rbi totals pre- 1900...

          Just another name to throw into the mix
          "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
          ~~Al Gallagher


          God Bless America!

          Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

          Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Had Buzz made the list bigger, he probably would have included Thompson.

            The problem with Thompson's 1894 is that IMO he was only the third best player in the league that year. 1. Duffy 2. Hamilton 3. Thompson. Had he learned to be a little more patient at the plate, I would have ranked him higher.

            He might have been arguable the best player in 1895(Jesse & Billy may beg to differ) but I don't think his 1895 is as good as Duffy's 1894.

            I will say that he was an RBI machine. Just like Pop. The thing that is puzzling to me is that according to BP translated stats, Pop maintains his ridiculous RBI totals but for some reason Thompson does not.

            In comparing of 19th century seasons, I rely quite a bit on BP's translated stats as baseball was so different then that it is almost impossible to compare the seasons. One thing that I don't understand though is that Fred Dunlap's 1884 season drops about the same as similar seaspms from the NL & the AA. I don't see how a stat from the Union Association could be considered close in value to a stat from the NL & AA.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, there are a lot of seasons that could be up there. Hamilton's 1894 springs most readily to mind, but I didn't include them for a variety of reasons- number one being that I'm quite human (really) and leave things out.

              I for one don't really count the UA as a major league, and Dunlap was just plain not that good. You really wanna see the difference in BP translated stats? Look at Charlie Sweeney's 1884, which he split between Providence in the NL and St. Lou in the UA. That's an eye opener.

              Did you notice that BP has Gwynn's career higher than Cobb's? And Hamilton's higher than Hornsby, Jackson, Speaker, and Delahanty (but not Boggs, Williams, and Keeler)?
              "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry not to be on the ball here but can someone explain to me what BP is?
                "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                ~~Al Gallagher


                God Bless America!

                Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Baseball Prospectus- go to www.baseballprospectus.com type in a name, and you'll pull up their career stats (much like baseball-reference.com), scroll down the page and amuse yourself with the translated batting or pitching stats. Translated how, you ask?

                  this is how they describe the batting ones:

                  "Converts the player's batting statistics into a context that is the same for everybody. The major characteristics of the translation are: 1) that the translated EQA should equal the original, all-time adjusted EQA (within some margin for error); 2) that all seasons are expanded to a 162 game schedule; 3) that the statistics are adjusted to a season where an average hitter would have, per 650 PA: 589 AB, 153 H, 31 DB, 3 TP, 19 HR, 56 BB, 5 HBP, 113 SO, 10 SB, 5 CS, 79 R and 75 RBI. His rates would be a .260 batting average, .330 onbase average, .420 slugging average, and a .260 EQA with 76 EQR."

                  You gotta take it all with a grain of salt, but it's a lot of fun to play around with, and you can find some surprising stuff.
                  "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Buzz for that info
                    "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                    ~~Al Gallagher


                    God Bless America!

                    Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                    Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I went with Duffy, but it wouldn't have taken much to get me to vote for Tip.

                      As for BP, those guys are legendary for torturing numbers into saying whatever they think the numbers ought to say.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        hard not to be impressed with a guy who leads his league in:

                        batting average
                        on-base percentage
                        slugging average
                        OPS
                        runs
                        hits
                        total bases
                        doubles
                        triples
                        home runs
                        RBI
                        adjusted OPS+
                        runs created
                        extra base hits
                        power/speed number
                        at bats per home run
                        batter runs
                        adjusted batter runs
                        total average
                        total player rating

                        such as tip o'neill in 1887

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have to go with Barnes. As we all know, he absolutley dominated 1876 offensively, but he was also the guy who revolutionized the art of fielding at second base.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bkmckenna
                            hard not to be impressed with a guy who leads his league in:

                            batting average
                            on-base percentage
                            slugging average
                            OPS
                            runs
                            hits
                            total bases
                            doubles
                            triples
                            home runs
                            RBI
                            adjusted OPS+
                            runs created
                            extra base hits
                            power/speed number
                            at bats per home run
                            batter runs
                            adjusted batter runs
                            total average
                            total player rating

                            such as tip o'neill in 1887
                            Still the only man ever to lead his league in doubles, triples, and homers the same season (Musial missed it by one homer in '48)
                            "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'll vote for the greatest Amish player of all-time...Levi Meyerle hit .492 in a 1871 26-game season, 130 AB, 2 BB and 1 SO

                              2nd: the Tipster's 1887 season

                              Comment

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