first man with 2000 hits?

[Buzzaldrin]

A question for the gang-

Joe Start, the original Grand Old Man of baseball, retired with 1418 hits in 1886 (at the age of 43!), fifth at the time only to Deacon White, Paul Hines, Cap Anson, and Ezra Sutton.

My question is, since Start began playing ball in 1862, do you think he had enough hits before joining the NA in 1871 to be the first player to reach 2000 hits overall? He just would have had to average 60ish hits a year, but was he playing enough games to do so?

[SABR Steve]

This is an interesting question. According to his record in "Nineteenth Century Stars," he made 597 hits between 1868-70; 380 hits in the National Association; and 1031 in the National League. That gives him 2008 ! We can dicker about the exact figures since no two resources are the same, but we have to keep in mind that the totals I have above don't include hits between 1860-1867.

[Barnstormer]

Do you know how many games teams played in the 1860s? It looks like from 1860-1867, the Civil War years, the Atlantics (Start's team) usually played 14-20 games a season (and won nearly all of them). From 1868-70 the teams picked it up to 30-50 games a year. Perhaps more in 1870 (I don't have great sources here, any help would be appreciated). So him getting almost 600 hits in those years seems like a strech, that's 200 hits a year.

Interesting tidbit, Start played with Dickey Pearce and against Jim Creighton, baseball's first stars. He also played with a young Connie Mack in his final year, so you have there a link from Pre-Civil war baseball to the 1950s with just 2 degrees of separation.

[SABR Steve]

Do you know how many games teams played in the 1860s? It looks like from 1860-1867, the Civil War years, the Atlantics (Start's team) usually played 14-20 games a season (and won nearly all of them). From 1868-70 the teams picked it up to 30-50 games a year. Perhaps more in 1870 (I don't have great sources here, any help would be appreciated). So him getting almost 600 hits in those years seems like a strech, that's 200 hits a year.

Interesting tidbit, Start played with Dickey Pearce and against Jim Creighton, baseball's first stars. He also played with a young Connie Mack in his final year, so you have there a link from Pre-Civil war baseball to the 1950s with just 2 degrees of separation.

I got my numbers from Nineteenth Century Stars: 53 games in 1868, 46 in 1869, and 51 in 1870.

[Barnstormer]

I got my numbers from Nineteenth Century Stars: 53 games in 1868, 46 in 1869, and 51 in 1870.

And the same source says he got 597 hits in those three seasons (in 150 games)?

[SABR Steve]

And the same source says he got 597 hits in those three seasons (in 150 games)?

Yes.

George Wright, the greatest player of the period, made 304 hits in 483 at-bats for a BA or .629, scoring 339 runsall in 1869. He also banged out 49 homers. although I've read where it was even more than that. There wasn't much parity in those days. The scores were enormous and often lopsided, so I think it is possible that Start had all those hits. Who knows?

[baseballPAP]

They were playing the equivalent of slow pitch softball...and a version where you get to request the location of your pitch even! Its a good possibility, but if you want to count those, I'm up over 1500 hits myself by now

[Buzzaldrin]

What makes you think it was slow pitch softball? Have you seen how fast people can pitch underhanded (and yes, it was pitch by then- Creighton had already added the wrist snap)? Quisenberry might argue with you about that claim of yours- and the only guy to die by being hit by a pitch in a major league game was hit by a submarine ball (from Carl Mays, in case you weren't aware). But Quiz and Mays (and company) had an extra ten feet to lose velocity- in the 1860s the mound was still at 50'- do you have any idea how fast the ball's were travelling? It certainly wasn't a 30 MPH lob; these guys were playing to win as much, if not more, than any player today, and you are simply NOT going to serve up a potato if you can help it, because you were just "playing to have a good time."

Heck, until 1864, you were out if the ball was caught on a bounce- and that included foul balls too. And from 1867, the picther was given freedom to move around in the large pitching box (I think it was 6' by 6', but am not sure), but I know that he was not at any point required to face the batter before or during the pitch.

It's not as simple as you think it was.

[SABR Steve]

What makes you think it was slow pitch softball? Have you seen how fast people can pitch underhanded (and yes, it was pitch by then- Creighton had already added the wrist snap)? Quisenberry might argue with you about that claim of yours- and the only guy to die by being hit by a pitch in a major league game was hit by a submarine ball (from Carl Mays, in case you weren't aware). But Quiz and Mays (and company) had an extra ten feet to lose velocity- in the 1860s the mound was still at 50'- do you have any idea how fast the ball's were travelling? It certainly wasn't a 30 MPH lob; these guys were playing to win as much, if not more, than any player today, and you are simply NOT going to serve up a potato if you can help it, because you were just "playing to have a good time."

Heck, until 1864, you were out if the ball was caught on a bounce- and that included foul balls too. And from 1867, the picther was given freedom to move around in the large pitching box (I think it was 6' by 6', but am not sure), but I know that he was not at any point required to face the batter before or during the pitch.

It's not as simple as you think it was.

It was even better than that. The "box" (no mound) was only 45 feet from the plate.

[SWCBaseball]

Joe Start began his baseball career in 1860 as a member of the Enterprise club. He played 6 games at 3B, 1B. His offensive numbers were 15 Hands Lost while scoring 10 runs. He would have been 17 years old. In 1861, he played 7 games at 1B, 3B with 12 Hands Lost and 29 runs for the same Enterprise club. In 1862, Start played 4 games at 1B with 11 Hands Lost and 6 runs for the Brooklyn Atlantic club. In 1863, he played 9 games at 1B, OF, SS with 26 Hands Lost and 23 runs. In 1864, still playing with the Atlantic, he played 1B, 3B with 47 Hands Lost and 82 runs. In 1865, again with the Atlantics, at 1B, in 18 games, he had 39 Hands Lost with 82 runs. In 1866, 16 games, 37 Hands Lost, 69 runs at 1B for the Atlantic. 1867 - 19 games, 40 hands lost, 83 runs at 1B.

So the totals for Joe Start from 1860 through 1867 are as follows; 97 games, 227 hands lost and 384 runs scored. Hands Lost were Outs.

In 1868, the following statistics were recorded Games, Hands Lost (Outs), Runs, Hits, Total Bases.
1868 - 52 games, 122 outs, 235 runs, 233 hits, 283 total bases
1869 - 46 games, 119 outs, 202 runs, 203 hits, 341 total bases
1870 - 56 games, 161 hits, 269 total bases (all) --- vs. Professional teams (21 games 99 hits, 149 total bases.

Totals 1868 - 1870 - 154 games, 597 hits, 893 total bases (All) ---