All 19th Century Team

[Chadwick]

Who makes your All-19th Century Team?

Rules
1. Some candidates will certainly have played the latter part of their career in the 20th Century. That doesn't mean we discount that portion of their career, but we are looking for the greatest players of the 19th Century. Please keep that in mind. In other words, this isn't a list solely of players whose careers ended before 1901.

2. Please come up with a 25-man roster plus 15 reserves. There are no positional requirements other than to have at least one player at each defensive position. Please use players at positions where they actually played a reasonable portion of their career. (25 games at catcher does not qualify one at catcher, sorry.) I'm not going to set a minimum number (or percentage) of games at a position, but please use common sense here.

3. Feel free to include black players, Cuban players, etc. if you honestly feel one or more should make the cut.

Last, but not least, have fun with this!

[Chadwick]

My 25-Player Roster
Pitchers - John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Kid Nichols, Charley Radbourn, Cy Young
Catchers - Buck Ewing, Deacon White
First Basemen - Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connor
Second Basemen - Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
Third Basemen - John McGraw
Shortstops - George Davis, Jack Glasscock, George Wright
Left Fielders - Jesse Burkett, Ed Delahanty, Jim O'Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Fielders - Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Lip Pike
Right Fielders - King Kelly, Sam Thompson

My 15-Player Reserves
P - Tommy Bond, Charlie Buffinton, Al Spalding
C - Charlie Bennett
1B - Jake Beckley, Joe Start
2B - Cupid Childs, Frank Grant, Hardy Richardson
3B - Ezra Sutton
SS - Bill Dahlen, Hughie Jennings
LF - Charley Jones
CF - Pete Browning, George Gore

[Stieb37]

25-Man Roster
Pitchers-Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Al Spalding, Old Hoss Radbourn, Tommy Bond, Jim McCormick
Catchers-Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett, Deacon White
First Basemen-Cap Anson, Joe Start
Second Basemen-Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee, Fred Dunlap
Third Basemen-Ezra Sutton, Ned Williamson
Shortstops-Jack Glasscock, George Wright, Monte Ward
Left Fielders-Jim O’Rourke, Harry Stovey
Center Fielders-Paul Hines, George Gore, Pete Browning
Right Fielders-King Kelly

15-Reserves
P-Tony Mullane, Bob Caruthers, Pud Galvin, Charlie Buffinton
C-Cal McVey, John Clapp
1B-Roger Connor
2B-Hardy Richardson
3B-Denny Lyons
SS-Jack Rowe, Ed McKean
LF-Charley Jones
CF-Lip Pike
RF-Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns

[Chadwick]

First of all, nice list. A few musings below...

Where is Dan Brouthers or Ed Delahanty? Did you just render George Davis "ineligible" as half his career was in the early 1900s?

For an era where teams carried 1-3 pitchers (gradually, but haphazardly increasing the "staff" the closer to the turn of the century they got), I'm a tad bit surprised to see fully one-quarter of the roster dedicated to pitchers.

I just thought of this myself, too, but do you believe that any professional negro or Cuban ballplayer from the 19th century could crack your list? Asking as you have Dunlap on your active roster, but the "Black Dunlap" not at all.

[Stieb37]

For an era where teams carried 1-3 pitchers (gradually, but haphazardly increasing the "staff" the closer to the turn of the century they got), I'm a tad bit surprised to see fully one-quarter of the roster dedicated to pitchers.

I just thought of this myself, too, but do you believe that any professional negro or Cuban ballplayer from the 19th century could crack your list? Asking as you have Dunlap on your active roster, but the "Black Dunlap" not at all.

I 100% think they could be on there. I just went with players who's MLB careers were over before 1900. George Stovey could qualify. Maybe Bud Fowler or Moses Fleetwood Walker if we had the stats. I almost put Frank Grant on there but he played until 1907.

[Chadwick]

That makes sense.

[bluesky5]

I 100% think they could be on there. I just went with players who's MLB careers were over before 1900. George Stovey could qualify. Maybe Bud Fowler or Moses Fleetwood Walker if we had the stats. I almost put Frank Grant on there but he played until 1907.

Holy cow I knew Grant crossed into the 20th c. but didn’t remember 1907. I think Grant and Stovey are the only 19th c. black guys I ever ranked. I think we do have Walker’s whole career recorded basically right? I’m not against ranking Fowler I just don’t have an opinion yet. Sol White would probably deserve mention too as a 19th c. black player. I’m skeptical we will find any really standout 19th c. black players we don’t already know. More is being discovered about guys like Octavious Catto and some early clubs. But there is hardly definitive statistical info or extensive playing narratives that far back.

[Chadwick]

Speaking for myself, I am attempting to be more consistent with conjecture about non-MLB players. Grant was known as the "black Dunlap". I may be Fred Dunlap's biggest friend on these boards, but he's borderline even for me. If Grant was literally a black Dunlap then that doesn't exactly vault Grant above Hardy Richardson or Bid McPhee or Cupid Childs, does it? Not unless you rank Dunlap himself ahead of those guys.

Nevermind that these comparisons are merely a point of convenient reference at the time they were made. Is Buck Leonard literally the black Gehrig? Hardly. There are similarities, from which the comp was drawn to begin with, but was he nearly as good? Nope. We can play this game all day.

Yet when I read that people who saw both play consistently held Luis Tiant Sr. as a better pitcher than his son, or Perucho Cepeda as a slick fielding shortstop who was a better hitter than his son, I tend to think of those players that way without as much skepticism of the anecdote/comparison as I have with these more generalized nicknames. I'm not sure if that's fair or consistent - and I certainly attempt/want to be consistent in my analysis.

Obviously, the more of a reliable statistical record we can assemble on any of these candidates, the more accurate view we have of them. Until we can piece together the bones and put some flesh on the skeleton, what we have are only portraits, facsimiles created by others', tainted by their biases, prejudices and preferences. We just hope it's a clear-eyed portrait that gets closer to the actual thing than a Picasso.

I should add here, specifically regarding Grant, that the Hall just reclassified him as an executive/pioneer. I assumed this was in no small part due to his lack of a solid statistical record? Fowler was classified the same way (presumably for the same reason), though Fowler has a stronger "executive" side to his case.

[futurewantz1two]

What about all the African American ball players through the 80s and 90s that receive any recognition.

[Chadwick]

What about all the African American ball players through the 80s and 90s that receive any recognition.

This thread is about who the very best players in 19th century baseball were at each respective position, making an "all-time" roster. We look forward to seeing your list and who you think were the best players of the time. Please refer to section 3 of the opening thread, relating specifically to non-MLB players.

[TonyK]

This thread places me in a conundrum because I enjoy researching both 19th Century baseball and 19th Century black baseball. When you open the door to possible black players making your lists you have to realize that organized baseball made this impossible because of the color line.

A list of your best 25 starters and 15 reserves of only black ballplayers of the 19th century is a good idea. Maybe somebody can start a thread in the Black Baseball forum?