Civil War Vets

[Brian McKenna]

How many Civil War vets played in the majors?

Guess we could split it up:

National Association 1871-75

and

1876 and on.

[Brian McKenna]

Paul Greenig with an astounding debut date of 1888

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=1531&pid=5451

Not a player but Civil War vet Morgan Bulkeley is in the Hall

[Brian McKenna]

From the SABR Armed Forces committee files:

Strong evidence for the following :
Frank Allen
Doug Allison
Henry Austin
Frank Bancroft
Alfred Barker
John Bass
Nate Berkenstock
Thomas Berry
Henry Berthrong
Oscar Bielaski
Charles Bierman
David Birdsall
William Bulkeley
Thomas Carey
Louis Carl
Dennis Coughlin
Bill Craver
Washington Fulmer
James Gifford
John Greenig
Winfield Hastings
Nathan Jewett
Caleb Johnson
Fergy Malone
Alphonse Martin
Dick McBride
A.G. Mills
William Parks
Ed Pinkham
Al Pratt
Robert Reach
Seymour Studley
William White
Nick Young

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Civil%20War%20veterans.pdf

Richard hershberger was on the committee so maybe he could shed some light here.

[rrhersh]

Richard hershberger was on the committee so maybe he could shed some light here.

My involvement on this project was quite peripheral. I happened to know that Bill Parks was a veteran, pointed this out, and Voila! I was on the committee. Peter Morris was an active participant, to toss out a name many of you know.

The project is pretty transparent. The Arms Forces committee had an incomplete list. The project was to confirm and expand it, as much as possible. It was wrapped up some months ago, when it was judged as complete as it was going to get.

[TonyK]

From the SABR Armed Forces committee files:

Strong evidence for the following :
Frank Allen
Doug Allison
Henry Austin
Frank Bancroft
Alfred Barker
John Bass
Nate Berkenstock
Thomas Berry
Henry Berthrong
Oscar Bielaski
Charles Bierman
David Birdsall
William Bulkeley
Thomas Carey
Louis Carl
Dennis Coughlin
Bill Craver
Washington Fulmer
James Gifford
John Greenig
Winfield Hastings
Nathan Jewett
Caleb Johnson
Fergy Malone
Alphonse Martin
Dick McBride
A.G. Mills
William Parks
Ed Pinkham
Al Pratt
Robert Reach
Seymour Studley
William White
Nick Young

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Civil%20War%20veterans.pdf

Richard hershberger was on the committee so maybe he could shed some light here.

If there is strong evidence, would it include what outfit they were in? With the large number of civil war buffs in the country I would think many of these players are known by local historical buffs for their soldiering.

This brings up an interesting idea. Since these soldiers later on became professional ballplayers, do we surmise that they were key organizers of ballgames at their civil war camps? I wonder if any of them ever spoke or wrote about their civil war experiences?

[hubkittel]

The Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System has an index of more than six million Civil War veterans (on both sides) and provides regiment, company, and rank. If somebody had the time or inclination, it wouldn't be that difficult to run everyone who played in the NA or NL in the 1870's and 80's through the system.

Other Civil War records and databases can be found at the Military Index website.

[Dennie Cunningham]

Hall Of Fame Member From Civil War

Again, not a ball player........but, it's inventor, Abner Doubleday

[Rennie Stennett]

Civil War

Interest in the Civil War is bigger than ever and accordingly, authors are taking advantage of this. Many, many books are out on the subject. While cruising through Barnes and Noble the other day I spotted a hugh coffee table book that included journals, diaries and the like from citizens from both sides and civilians.

The cost could get you tickets for opening day at Safeco.

[rrhersh]

This brings up an interesting idea. Since these soldiers later on became professional ballplayers, do we surmise that they were key organizers of ballgames at their civil war camps? I wonder if any of them ever spoke or wrote about their civil war experiences?

You can find some formal games that seem to have a connection with organized ball. The Washington clubs played some regiments during the war, which strongly suggests that someone on the regiment side had ties with the formal organized ball clubs.

But on the other side, connecting post-war ball playing with play by soldiers, the evidence is thin. There were any number of veterans who played baseball, but it is not clear that they were disproportionately represented, either as club members or club organizers.

I have done some research on Bill Parks. He had a long, involved story about running away from home to enlist, despite being underage, with his father retrieving him from the recruiting station several times before finally consenting. Soon after the war he was caught up in the baseball craze, playing for various clubs in the region and drifting into professionalism. In 1876 he was a very marginal utility fielder for Boston until he was released early in the season. This was all layed out in loving detail in his obituary. There is no mention of baseball during the war. Baseball was what he did after the war. (After baseball he was a barber.) This seems pretty typical. There clearly is some connection between the timing of the baseball boom and the end of the war, but it seems not to have been so simple as soldiers learned baseball in the army and took it home with them.

Richard Hershberger

[rrhersh]

Again, not a ball player........but, it's inventor, Abner Doubleday

I trust this is a joke.

[Pere]

I trust this is a joke.

Me too, but I notice that Peter Morris claims (and this is apparently explained in his Michigan book, which I don't have) that Abner Graves may have confused two Abner Doubledays... one the Union officer (who had nothing whatever to do with baseball), and the other apparently an early ballplayer (but certainly not an "inventor").

I'm in the midst of But Didn't We Have Fun? now, and it's pretty good. It certainly portrays the war as a setback in baseball development, virtually the opposite of the notion of military movement being a vehicle for conveying the new game.

[runningshoes]

Again, not a ball player........but, it's inventor, Abner Doubleday

It's difficult to believe that myth is still so prevalent.

[rrhersh]

I've never looked into the "not that Abner Doubleday, the other Abner Doubleday" theory, so I can't really comment on it. But as I have discussed in other threads, even if it was the other Abner Doubleday that Graves (the other other Abner) recalled, so what? We have a bit of trivia of moderate interest to specialists. It is a data point, but not what that particularly stands out from all the others, and certainly not a window into the origins of baseball.

As for the Civil War, I think Peter and I have pretty much the same opinion. For organized baseball, the war put a temporary halt on its expansion. For the idea that the game spread through the ranks, there is little actual evidence. Considering the large body of diaries and memoirs, I would expect someone to record something like "the New York boys taught us how they play baseball" but this has not yet turned up.

[Pere]

I've never looked into the "not that Abner Doubleday, the other Abner Doubleday" theory, so I can't really comment on it. But as I have discussed in other threads, even if it was the other Abner Doubleday that Graves (the other other Abner) recalled, so what? We have a bit of trivia of moderate interest to specialists. It is a data point, but not what that particularly stands out from all the others, and certainly not a window into the origins of baseball.

Oh, I agree. It's a tiny curiosity.

By the time I first heard the Doubleday story, the standard telling was accompanied by a wink and an acknowledgement that it wasn't true. I always had the understanding that Graves was just a liar. So it's mildly interesting to hear that there apparently was an "Abner Doubleday" who had heard of baseball, at least.

However, I still like the fact that the minor league team in Auburn, New York, is called the Doubledays.

[Brian McKenna]

Me too, but I notice that Peter Morris claims (and this is apparently explained in his Michigan book, which I don't have) that Abner Graves may have confused two Abner Doubledays... one the Union officer (who had nothing whatever to do with baseball), and the other apparently an early ballplayer (but certainly not an "inventor").

Even if Graves played with one Doubleday or the other or with Joe Blow, the game was prevalent throughout the States before and during that time frame. The only reason Doubleday (one or the other) stands out is because the (long since discounted) Mills' Commission said he does.