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Female Ump to Work MLB Exhibition Game

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
    Women umps.


    I can't picture Earl Weaver and Billy Martin dealing with one. Especially if it's a big woman who's built like Ron Luciano.

    Funny thing: a few years ago a friend of mine's wife was the ump in an adult softball game. She absolutely blew the call on an unassisted triple play (she had no clue what had happened - the batter lined out to short with runners on first and second. He quickly tagged the runner on second who was darting for third. He then tagged the runner from first who ran to second. She argued that he had to tag the runner at second before he touched base. I was the player coach and I advised her that the runner had no right to advance to second - ball caught on liner - without a tag-up, so touching second was irrelevant. She began screaming at me saying she was right and she was going to toss me....all that.....her hubby, also on the team came over and started making cow sounds. That was it. She tossed her own hubby. Fortunately, the field manager, boss of the umps saw the play happen and corrected the young lady on the decision. But she still tossed her husband. I wonder what kind of night they had?).

    I remember when Emmett Ashford became the first black man to umpire major league baseball in 1966. Actually, with the number of black players in MLB back in the 60's, it went almost unnoticed. Though I do remember him and Frank Robinson going at it that season after a disagreement. It took Boog Powell to hold Frank when he went after Emmett.

    Emmett worked throught the 1970 season then retired. He was a minor league umpire for 25 years prior to his entry into the big leagues.
    I don't really see what the above anecdote has to do with anything. How does her lack of knowledge about the unassisted triple play relate to her being a woman? If you are going to respond that you were just telling a funny story that's one thing, but in the context of the overall debate, I think the implications of the story are obvious.

    I could tell you hours worth of stories about male official scorers of Double and Triple A teams who didn't know things that as basic as, any run scored by a player who reached on an error is automatically unearned. I could tell you stories about perfectly clean games scored by female OSes. I could tell you a lot of anecdotes in general, but they don't prove anything, so I haven't done it.
    Last edited by digglahhh; 04-02-2007, 07:00 AM.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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    • #17
      Female Empire Flawless, Mlb=2009

      http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...033003361.html
      Varitek=Future Red Sox Manager
      Boston Boxer - a Real Hero

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
        I don't really see what the above anecdote has to do with anything. How does her lack of knowledge about the unassisted triple play relate to her being a woman? If you are going to respond that you were just telling a funny story that's one thing, but in the context of the overall debate, I think the implications of the story are obvious.

        I could tell you hours worth of stories about male official scorers of Double and Triple A teams who didn't know things that as basic as, any run scored by a player who reached on an error is automatically unearned. I could tell you stories about perfectly clean games scored by female OSes. I could tell you a lot of anecdotes in general, but they don't prove anything, so I haven't done it.
        The point was, arguing with females is probably more difficult for males than male vs. male. At least, it isn't easy for me (especially with the wife of a friend, who was the ump in question). I tend to take the gloves off a little more for the male umps. Human nature, I guess.

        Which is why I preceeded the story with an Earl Weaver/Billy Martin comment.
        Last edited by Iron Jaw; 04-02-2007, 09:17 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
          The point was, arguing with females is probably more difficult for males than male vs. male. At least, it isn't easy for me (especially with the wife of a friend, who was the ump in question). I tend to take the gloves off a little more for the male umps. Human nature, I guess.

          Which is why I preceeded the story with an Earl Weaver/Billy Martin comment.
          Okay, that wasn't completely clear to me. That could easily be my fault.

          It is tough not to feel that way. I know that the old gentlemanly tradition of showing women the utmost respect looms here. Perhaps, the real problem is that us men are too willing to show disrespect to male umpires.

          As amusing as the antics were, Weaver and Martin (not to mention Pinella and others) often appeared as buffoons. We were laughing AT them. That behavior is probably unbecoming in general, regardless of the gender of whom it is directed at.

          I'm just throwing out the idea that a little more incentive to show restraint is probably not necessarily a bad thing.
          Last edited by digglahhh; 04-03-2007, 08:55 AM.
          THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

          In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
            Women umps.


            I can't picture Earl Weaver and Billy Martin dealing with one. Especially if it's a big woman who's built like Ron Luciano.

            Funny thing: a few years ago a friend of mine's wife was the ump in an adult softball game. She absolutely blew the call on an unassisted triple play (she had no clue what had happened - the batter lined out to short with runners on first and second. He quickly tagged the runner on second who was darting for third. He then tagged the runner from first who ran to second. She argued that he had to tag the runner at second before he touched base. I was the player coach and I advised her that the runner had no right to advance to second - ball caught on liner - without a tag-up, so touching second was irrelevant. She began screaming at me saying she was right and she was going to toss me....all that.....her hubby, also on the team came over and started making cow sounds. That was it. She tossed her own hubby. Fortunately, the field manager, boss of the umps saw the play happen and corrected the young lady on the decision. But she still tossed her husband. I wonder what kind of night they had?).

            I remember when Emmett Ashford became the first black man to umpire major league baseball in 1966. Actually, with the number of black players in MLB back in the 60's, it went almost unnoticed. Though I do remember him and Frank Robinson going at it that season after a disagreement. It took Boog Powell to hold Frank when he went after Emmett.

            Emmett worked throught the 1970 season then retired. He was a minor league umpire for 25 years prior to his entry into the big leagues.
            Plenty of male umps blow plenty of calls, too. I just saw one yesterday at the Tigers home opener who was behind the dish... I was at the game sitting behind the plate in the 14th row off the field. He was absolutely HORRIBLE for both the Tigers and the Blue Jays.

            Some people still think women are inferior to men in all ways. Get over it!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
              Okay, I that wasn't completely clear to me. That could easily be my fault.

              It is tough not to feel that way. I know that the old gentlemanly tradition of showing women the utmost respect looms here. Perhaps, the real problem is that us men are too willing to show disrespect to male umpires.

              As amusing as the antics were, Weaver and Martin (not to mention Pinella and others) often appeared as buffoons. We were laughing AT them. That behavior is probably unbecoming in general, regardless of the gender of whom it is directed at.

              I'm just throwing out the idea that a little more incentive to show restraint is probably not necessarily a bad thing.
              I can't stand it when men think they have to show women more respect than they show men. I take great offense when men do that to me. I threw around a few cuss words yesterday at the Tigers game, and this guy in front of me had to make comments about it. I wanted to say, "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to disturb you... since I'm a female who said a few cuss words!"

              It's time that society let that traditional garbage go. It's so sickening to me. If there are women out there who can't handle equality in that way and who manipulate guys to be that way with them, that's their problem. They are just as much to blame as the male chauvinists out there.

              I also can't stand it when men think they have to open doors for women and when women take advantage of that. I say, whoever gets to the door first opens the door for everyone else who is behind them... respect for all.

              Comment


              • #22
                Well, I'm of the opinion that we should try our best to be courteous and respectful to women and men, not because they are women or men, but because that's the way I'd like to be treated. I've actually had more than one experience in which I did something nice for a woman, such as held the door or offered to help carrying heavy packages and was looked at as a sexist for it. You have to be cautious about being overly defensive yourself, NAE. The respect line is tricky to walk and prematurely ascribing motives to the actions of others is often a recipe for misunderstanding. Respect for all, as people, is the call!

                The second base umpire blew the call in yesterday's Bal/Min game when he called Morneau out at second on that ball he hit off the baggy in right. The 3B coach also blew the call by not sending Mauer on that same play. He blew another one when he sent Morneau on the play where he was gunned down trying to score and collided with Bako. So, he had a bad game and he's a guy. Somewhere in the stands, some woman probably blew the scoring of the play in her scorebook, and so did some kid, and a couple of Jewish guys and several men over six feet tall...

                See the problem, just like my story about the woman thinking I'm a chauvinist for holding the door, all this crap is anecdotal.

                To quote the signature of one of the Stats forum regulars, Pizzacutter, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
                THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by NotAboutEgo View Post
                  I also can't stand it when men think they have to open doors for women and when women take advantage of that. I say, whoever gets to the door first opens the door for everyone else who is behind them... respect for all.
                  That part of me will never change. I was raised a gentleman and will always be that. Over the years I've found that most women appreciate the respect.....the chivalry. Knightly virtues, honour and courtly love. That's the real me. And at 51 years of age, I can't really be expected to change my ways.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
                    That part of me will never change. I was raised a gentleman and will always be that. Over the years I've found that most women appreciate the respect.....the chivalry. Knightly virtues, honour and courtly love. That's the real me. And at 51 years of age, I can't really be expected to change my ways.
                    I disagree that people "can't" change because of their age. That's an excuse to me. Not trying to beat you up here, but just saying people can change if they want to. I respect that you were brought up that way. At the same time, I don't agree with that perspective.

                    One of my co-workers thinks the same way. He's a great guy... always kind and polite and is a great person. Whenever we are coming through the door at the same time, he insists on opening the door for me, and it drives me absolutely crazy! He could have 5 things in his hands, and yet, he still tries to open the door instead of letting me do it for him. He refuses to let me open the door for him.

                    I think, from his eyes, he was raised to serve women... and I highly disagree with that point of view. I think everyone needs to respect everyone else, regardless of gender, color, language they speak... whatever.

                    Then there are guys who work in my company who are completely chavinistic and won't accept a woman holding a door open for them. That is the worst case I've ever seen!

                    When guys think it's their duty, their responsibility, their right, or whatever to have to open doors for women, it really gets to me. I know that your perspective is that you are being a gentleman and all that, and that's fine, and you have the right to see it that way. But, the underlying reason for people/society sending that message stems from the traditional viewpoint that women are weak, and therefore, they need to be taken care of by a man. I don't need to be taken care of by a man. It doesn't mean I don't like men... that's not true at all... believe me. But, I am a completely self-reliant, self-supporting woman, and I don't need anyone to take care of me.

                    What does this have to do with baseball? It has to do with it in the way that the whole "power struggle" thing between men and women stems from the traditional belief that women are weaker than men, and so weak in fact, that they need to be taken care of by a man. This is what drives the idea that women can't play baseball and should play softball.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      To the men who were raised that way, hold open doors, pays the check, ect ect... you're a rare breed these days. Nice to see some still exist out there. Now, I'm a women and I like to take care of myself. I like doing things my way and dont care for someone to try to help me when Im quite capable of doing it myself. Would it rile me up if a man opens a door for me? No... not at all. A quick scan, and i can decide in 10 seconds if I want to flirt with him or not

                      Common sense and respect for all, is all these type of men are doing. I highly doubt they think women are soooooo weak, they cant open a door for themselves. For those men, I have a great deal of respect for. We need more people in the world like that and perhaps maybe there would be less bickering and arguing. Personally, I rather see the respect and smiles and thank you's over the ugliness of anger, hostility, and verbal slander.

                      This really has nothing to do with baseball at all. In any shape or form.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                        Well, I'm of the opinion that we should try our best to be courteous and respectful to women and men, not because they are women or men, but because that's the way I'd like to be treated. I've actually had more than one experience in which I did something nice for a woman, such as held the door or offered to help carrying heavy packages and was looked at as a sexist for it. You have to be cautious about being overly defensive yourself, NAE. The respect line is tricky to walk and prematurely ascribing motives to the actions of others is often a recipe for misunderstanding. Respect for all, as people, is the call!

                        The second base umpire blew the call in yesterday's Bal/Min game when he called Morneau out at second on that ball he hit off the baggy in right. The 3B coach also blew the call by not sending Mauer on that same play. He blew another one when he sent Morneau on the play where he was gunned down trying to score and collided with Bako. So, he had a bad game and he's a guy. Somewhere in the stands, some woman probably blew the scoring of the play in her scorebook, and so did some kid, and a couple of Jewish guys and several men over six feet tall...

                        See the problem, just like my story about the woman thinking I'm a chauvinist for holding the door, all this crap is anecdotal.

                        To quote the signature of one of the Stats forum regulars, Pizzacutter, "the plural of anecdote is not data."
                        I apologize for not making my point more clear. I wasn't calling you a chauvinist. Rather, I was making a comment that is related to what you said about treating everyone equally. I agree with you 100% on what you said. What I'm saying is, I hate it when guys think they need to hold the door open for a person or help them in some way, just because she's a woman, and he thinks it means she needs his help just because she's a woman.

                        Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JeepingBaseball View Post
                          To the men who were raised that way, hold open doors, pays the check, ect ect... you're a rare breed these days. Nice to see some still exist out there. Now, I'm a women and I like to take care of myself. I like doing things my way and dont care for someone to try to help me when Im quite capable of doing it myself. Would it rile me up if a man opens a door for me? No... not at all. A quick scan, and i can decide in 10 seconds if I want to flirt with him or not

                          Common sense and respect for all, is all these type of men are doing. I highly doubt they think women are soooooo weak, they cant open a door for themselves. For those men, I have a great deal of respect for. We need more people in the world like that and perhaps maybe there would be less bickering and arguing. Personally, I rather see the respect and smiles and thank you's over the ugliness of anger, hostility, and verbal slander.

                          This really has nothing to do with baseball at all. In any shape or form.
                          I think it's fine if a guy wants to open the door for a woman or a man or a child. To me, that's respect. What I have a problem with is when a guy refuses to let a woman open a door for him, even if he is a gentleman and isn't chauvinistic (In a way, it is being chauvinistic, even if he's not trying to be). It happens to me all the time.

                          If a guy is a true gentleman, he will be a gentleman with everyone... like Digglahhh stated... not just with women.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Realistic....

                            Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
                            That part of me will never change. I was raised a gentleman and will always be that. Over the years I've found that most women appreciate the respect.....the chivalry. Knightly virtues, honour and courtly love. That's the real me. And at 51 years of age, I can't really be expected to change my ways.
                            Please don't! As an older female, sometimes with a cane, I expect from anyone capable the courtesy of an opened door. If I see an older person that needs help, or a parent looking a bit overwhelmed, I help. If I see a group walking four or five abreast on the side walk, I may just stop walking, may make a joke, make it clear in a nice way they need to be more considerate.

                            If I'm bumped because someone is in a hurry, or I see a vunerable person not given enough space, I am not happy, let people know it.

                            People with respect and courtesy should be treated the same way. If the guy with 50 packages tries, let him know politely, "I've got it."

                            I may notice a gentleman that I think should have the door opened for him. But be careful. Your smile and thank you will mean a lot to him. If you insist on doing it yourself, feelings may be hurt.

                            Baseball: If I'm lucky enough to be at a game, and some nitwit walks blocks my view of Ortiz at bat, I may not be a lady. I will watch my language, because there are children at ballgames. I know enough words to get my point across without being coarse.
                            Varitek=Future Red Sox Manager
                            Boston Boxer - a Real Hero

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CuriousBoston View Post
                              Please don't! As an older female, sometimes with a cane, I expect from anyone capable the courtesy of an opened door. If I see an older person that needs help, or a parent looking a bit overwhelmed, I help. If I see a group walking four or five abreast on the side walk, I may just stop walking, may make a joke, make it clear in a nice way they need to be more considerate.

                              If I'm bumped because someone is in a hurry, or I see a vunerable person not given enough space, I am not happy, let people know it.

                              People with respect and courtesy should be treated the same way. If the guy with 50 packages tries, let him know politely, "I've got it."

                              I may notice a gentleman that I think should have the door opened for him. But be careful. Your smile and thank you will mean a lot to him. If you insist on doing it yourself, feelings may be hurt.

                              Baseball: If I'm lucky enough to be at a game, and some nitwit walks blocks my view of Ortiz at bat, I may not be a lady. I will watch my language, because there are children at ballgames. I know enough words to get my point across without being coarse.
                              Anyone who is in need of help should receive it. I agree with that. I would kindly help you or anyone else if you were in need of it.

                              Originally posted by CuriousBoston View Post
                              I may notice a gentleman that I think should have the door opened for him. But be careful. Your smile and thank you will mean a lot to him. If you insist on doing it yourself, feelings may be hurt.
                              If I have read this correctly... if a guy's feelings are hurt when a woman chooses to open the door for herself, then he has emotions to deal with. I have no problem with a guy (or a woman) who's being courteous enough to open a door for someone. It's the instances where I or another woman get to the door first and hold it open for a guy who follows us, and he refuses to let us open the door for him, or if it's a case like my co-worker who can't ever accept a woman holding a door open for him, regardless of the reason behind it. There is an underlying reason for such a thing to happen, and in my opinion, it stems back to the times when women were told their place was in the home.

                              A guy may think he's being respectful to women when he insists on holding the door open for them and never lets the woman open the door for him. I disagree. It's respectful when one holds the door open for everyone.

                              I like your style, CuriousBoston.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by NotAboutEgo View Post
                                I apologize for not making my point more clear. I wasn't calling you a chauvinist. Rather, I was making a comment that is related to what you said about treating everyone equally. I agree with you 100% on what you said. What I'm saying is, I hate it when guys think they need to hold the door open for a person or help them in some way, just because she's a woman, and he thinks it means she needs his help just because she's a woman.

                                Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
                                Oh, I didn't think you called me a chauvinist. We've had many exchanges on this forum, surely if you were going to call me a chauvinist, it would have happened already (and probably in no uncertain terms).

                                I'm just saying that somebody holding a door open for you or not holding a door open for you can happen for a lot of reasons. "Small sample size" as they say in the Stats Forum.

                                I think it is common courtesy to offer help to somebody who looks like they might want some. It is common courtesy for that person to politely refuse the help if they would rather not be helped. And it is common courtesy for the initial offerer to respect the other person's refusal.

                                It is also common courtesy to not block the view of David Ortiz's at bat during a baseball game! However, it is also common courtesy to offer to block my view of first base if he makes a cameo on defense...
                                Last edited by digglahhh; 04-03-2007, 01:53 PM.
                                THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                                In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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