Whats the call Ump??

[dwatkins]

I coach high school baseball in the summer and fall off seaons. We had an intense game with the following senario and I would like feed back as to what the correct call should have been:

Bottom of 10th; score tied; sunlight running out; we are home; we are batting; have one out with men on second and third.

Our batter hits deep to center field; fielder catches ball for out number two; man at third tags up and seemingly scores to win the game.

Opposing coach runs onto field and chats the ump. Opposing team then retakes the field and their positions; pitcher has the ball, steps off rubber, throws to second base; field ump calls an out for the third out indicating our runner at second left base before the catch.

Home plate ump says nothing but had called our runner at third safe at home plate for the win.

The umps talk and decide that since the runner at second had left early, he was the third out on the challenge; as such the run from third does not count and the game was called a tie (due to lack of day-light). I say we won. Our runner at third scored before the challenge and out call at second and also, I don't think our runer at second left at all. Say you?? Thanks

DWatkins

[TrentThomas]

1) No appeal allowed after defensive team has left field

2) *IF* properly appealed:
R2 leaving early is a time play, since no force in effect - Run should score

[Goo64]

Ok, well apparently you got the shaft out of that deal. This is something that I hate seeing though. The kids in high school never understand this aspect of the game. If you are the home team and need one run to win, than the only runner that matters would be the one on third....if a ball is hit to teh outfield than the guy on 2nd should not even move...he could afford to wait until the ball was caught and the guy was about to throw the ball. I see this all the time and it kills me.

[ptfpantherdad]

1) No appeal allowed after defensive team has left field

2) *IF* properly appealed:
R2 leaving early is a time play, since no force in effect - Run should score

I disagree. The r2 is a force out because he has to tag up. If he left early then technically he never tug up. Tagging up is not a choice but required, therefore it was called correctly. The same thing happened in a game for my 9 year old. But I'm not an umpire so I could be wrong.

[108stitches]

I have umpired for thirty one years in little league and this is how I see this;
The game is over. Once the defensive team has leaft the field and the home plate umpire is satisfied with the winning run - there is no other recourse. Second base is not in dispute. The only possible dispute would be if the man on third left early and the defensive team touched the bag before leaving the field.

[ptfpantherdad]

I have umpired for thirty one years in little league and this is how I see this;
The game is over. Once the defensive team has leaft the field and the home plate umpire is satisfied with the winning run - there is no other recourse. Second base is not in dispute. The only possible dispute would be if the man on third left early and the defensive team touched the bag before leaving the field.

What if it wasn't the game winning run? What if it was the 3rd inning?

[108stitches]

The defensive team would not have left the field. Then, if they stepped on second, that would record the third out.

[baseballfreak120]

DEpending on the league depends o the caLL. i AM AN uMPIRE. If the team left the field then the call is wrong the appeal was to late. If the guy on second left before the one on third then it is a force therefore the call was wrong he needed to be tagged out rather than touch a base that he left which is not forced. The call was wrong and you legally should have won the game there.

[Manny A]

If the guy on second left before the one on third then it is a force

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I just had to comment on this one, since both baseballfreak120 and ptpantherdad both said something here that is completely wrong.

Whenever the defense appeals that a runner failed to tag up properly on a caught fly ball, that is NOT a force out. On the original play in question, regardless if the defense left the field or not, an appeal on the runner at second for leaving early has no bearing on the outcome of this game. As long as the runner from third properly tagged up and scored before the appeal at second, the run scores and the home team wins.

Here is an Approved Ruling from Official Baseball Rule 4.09:

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat him to the base. three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

Similarly, an appeal on Smith at first base if Smith didn't happen to return to first, it is not a force play. The definition of a Force Play from the rule book is:

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

The runner at second base on this play never lost his right to occupy second. So any out on him is not a force out.

Manny

[TrentThomas]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I just had to comment on this one, since both baseballfreak120 and ptpantherdad both said something here that is completely wrong.

Thanks for setting this straight.

I cringed reading those other guys, but got sidetracked and didn't respond.

Manny is spot on, as usual.

[tip184]

If you disagree with a rules interpretation, it's to your benefit to protest. Had you protested the decision to not score the run, you probably would have a win rather than a tie right now.

[Newyouthcoach]

One thing also needs to be stated in the original post. Did all of the players leave the playing field? If not, and either of the umpires were not off of the playing field, then he had every right to appeal. I do agree that you got the shaft as far as the run not counting. This was not a force out, just a put out. It is a timing play.

tip is right that you should protest, unless your high school association does not allow protests.