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National League Park (Kennard Street Baseball Grounds / Kennard Street Park)

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  • #31
    Here's my 1892 map



    And a 1908 map

    Last edited by cnp3; 02-21-2007, 11:40 AM.

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    • #32
      Well that just throws me further for a loop. Right field is just out of city limits they say. Beyerle which is home plate has several streets between it and third base at Hugo and Independence and I still can't figure out how sykora would be LF.

      It has to be a typo on the books part. Beyerle is not north of any of the roads that it claims it should be.

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      • #33
        I found a reference to Beyerle Park in which it mentions a street railway system on Wilson AVe that ran from Scovill to Beyerle Park. That was put in place in 1883.

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        • #34
          Here is some more info

          A newfound relative of mine shared some memories that he had
          of this park as his parents and grandparents lived on Beyerle Road. It
          was originally called Forest City Park and was down in the valley. Now,
          the park that is up on higher land is known as Washington Park.

          He mentioned that at the bottom of the ravine behind Beyerle Road, there
          was Forest City Park. There was a huge lake down there where they had
          boating, rollerskating, a ballroom for dancing, and a beer hall. He said
          that they called it "Hooper's Pond" and that they used to catch bluegills
          there. This was an amusement park owned by the Humphrey family until the
          late 19th century. This family closed Forest City Park and they later
          owned Euclid Beach Park. But the park existed until at least 1930, not
          as a park, but as a dump. The city traded the land that was Forest City
          Park to the Steel Mill. The Steel mill used it for dumping their slag or
          gravel and the steel mill gave other land to the city for a park
          (currently the land that is Washington Park on E. 49th in Newburgh Hts.)
          There was a trolley that ran on E. 49th street and there was a
          turnaround on Sykora Ave. That's how the people from further north came
          to this park. There was also Rusty Creek which was located at the end of
          Fleet Avenue. The canal was also down there and people would swim in it.
          There is a history of the park available, probably written by John
          Grabowski at the WRHS as far as my relative can remember.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ubiquitous
            Here is some more info
            Good stuff.

            Washington park is indeed due south of that - and that faded green line in the second map is streetcar service. - if you look close you can see that there's a turnaround at Sykora and Beyerle

            if you want to see that rand mcnally map i keep popping up, the entire thing is at this link

            You can find rail maps at http://www.railsandtrails.com

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            • #36
              If you don't feel like looking and downloading map viewers - here's a 1924 map of the area that gives the best look at what you're talking about

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                If those are still the same streets in the same place that is one weirdly shaped field. They must of moved those roads slightly. If third base is at the corner of Hugo and Independence at home plate is on Beyerle st, it is awfully hard for Sykora to be left field and for it to still make sense.

                Perhaps if Beyerle was north of Independence and not south it would make sense but I can't see how it makes sense as it is now.
                I can't visualize the field from the dimensions given. Maybe it was in that cloverleaf marked Beyerle on the 1892 map. That was in Newburgh Hts. The streets named in the book are in Cleveland. That's a neughborhood that looks like it was cut off from Slavic Village by I-77.

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                • #38
                  The White Auto Game at Brookside Park

                  To go back to the famous 1915 semi-pro game for a moment, there is also a famous picture of the game (alluded to above by Mr. West) & the large crowd surrounding it. I am wondering if this picture could somehow be fed into a computer, or at least the outline of all the shapes (people) in it. Then, if some type of software or other technique exists to provide an approximate count of the people at the game. (at least those in the picture) If so, then a fairly accurate estimated count could be obtained, with those areas behind the camera extrapolated. I have heard over the years many different estimates of that crowd's size & just wonder if modern science could answer, or at least come very close to saying how many people were there that day. Does anyone have some insight into this?

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                  • #39
                    start counting . . . .

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                    • #40
                      AS for guessing, I guess you could probably do some rough back of the envelope calculations. Figure out the square footage of the area then divide by the square footage you think an average person would have taken up back in 1915. Sounds like a college study to me. Get a couple of frats together get them out on a hill see how much square footage X amount of college kids take up. Apply to what is known of the Brookside park area and presto you got yourself an estimate.

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                      • #41
                        Fantastic picture Ubiquitous! I havent seen it for years but growing up in Cleveland I did see it, I think the Press or PD once printed it when doing a retrospective piece on the game. You are surely correct in that you might get a quick and dirty crowd estimate with your technique. Cant help but believe there isnt a computer based way to do the same thing much faster. Maybe the CIA or NSA has the software to do it... Anyway, thanx again for a look at that shot... amazing crowd to be sure, especially for the day. The Indians had to be wondering what they could do to get a crowd like that lol

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                        • #42
                          You could talk to a civil engineer he probably has the software. Though again you would have to give him the dimensions and layout of the park. All the satellites do is give a more exact size of the sprawl, and then the engineers plug in their formula. The satellites and the programs are not really couting each head, but doing an estimate using rather basic math. Like I said above if you have the dimensions practically any engineer prof or craftsmen can do it. Probably even your fire department since they ratios as well.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Calif_Eagle
                            Fantastic picture Ubiquitous! I havent seen it for years but growing up in Cleveland I did see it, I think the Press or PD once printed it when doing a retrospective piece on the game. You are surely correct in that you might get a quick and dirty crowd estimate with your technique. Cant help but believe there isnt a computer based way to do the same thing much faster. Maybe the CIA or NSA has the software to do it... Anyway, thanx again for a look at that shot... amazing crowd to be sure, especially for the day. The Indians had to be wondering what they could do to get a crowd like that lol
                            I'd like to thank Ubiq as well. The Tribe's ten cent beer didn't even draw that many
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                            • #44
                              Kennard dimensions

                              RF - 325'

                              CF - 430'

                              LF - 285'

                              Back Stop - 90'

                              Go To: http://cplorg.cdmhost.com/cdm4/docum...SOPTR=44&REC=2
                              go to plate #8

                              Click on Plate no. 5 zoom in on light green patch in upper right corner

                              Another old park can be found here: http://cplorg.cdmhost.com/cdm4/docum...OPTR=238&REC=1

                              click on plate #26

                              Tip: do not zoom too closely. It will require exiting and starting over. Once zoomed in there is no going back
                              Last edited by elmer; 01-28-2015, 06:16 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
                                AS for guessing, I guess you could probably do some rough back of the envelope calculations. Figure out the square footage of the area then divide by the square footage you think an average person would have taken up back in 1915. Sounds like a college study to me. Get a couple of frats together get them out on a hill see how much square footage X amount of college kids take up. Apply to what is known of the Brookside park area and presto you got yourself an estimate.
                                Or you could just read the

                                Attendance: 118000

                                on the picture..

                                "...So the winning run is on second base, with two outs, three and two to Mookie Wilson.

                                Little roller up along first; BEHIND THE BAG! It gets through Buckner!

                                Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!"



                                - Vin Scully, Announcer

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