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  • Originally posted by paynoaks View Post
    Hello YS Fans,

    If there is any info you would like about the columns, cables, turnbuckles, etc., I would be happy to share.

    Demo will indeed have to be done with some form of jack beam or scaffolding, because when you unweight either the front or the back, an imbalance will dangerously occur. Remember, when the whole thing was assembled, only then did we cut loose the columns. In reverse would require replacing the columns with some support...taking down the top ten rows of precast concrete...then either removing the cantilevered upper deck and mezzanine or the turnbuckles and cables.

    Of the 6 of us that were together for the whole 19 months, I know that at least 3 have passed on. I was not quite 30 and one of the younger ones, so, who else survives...who knows. It was a great experience.

    Dick Muller
    Hey paynoaks! I walked a total of about 3 miles to buy that NY times in august of '74 that you were featured in. That was such an interesting project you had to work on, I was so jealous! I still have that article, it's in my renovation scrapbook. I guess everybody was relieved when the cantilever was put into service and functioned properly, you may have been breaking new ground with a major modification of this nature, that was a lot of weight to shift. I hate seeing this place come down now, and if it gives them more trouble than they bargained for I'll shed some crocodile tears on their behalf.

    Comment


    • Hello Mr. Muller. It's nice to finally see someone who was actually involved in what we have been speculating for the past 35 years to clear the air.
      The interview that you gave to Mike Wagner about you cutting the poles . . er, columns was right up our alley.
      With the cables all installed and with adequate tension to maintain the upper deck, and with the columns still in place, isn't it a dangerous practice to simply severe a column to see if it holds up? It sounds more like a crap shoot. I know where you were standing when you cut the column, but tell me, where were THEY standing?

      Comment


      • SB,

        Thanks for the ego boost. I still have a copy of the Times...it is quite yellowed and wrinkled, though. I am not yellowed, yet...wrinkled maybe.

        As to the day the lst sticker was cut, we Ironworkers didn't believe it was going to work, so the joke was that we were all going to take the day off in case the whole thing gave way. There were about a dozen engineers and architects watching as I cut that last tiny piece. A big ooops followed. When we came back to work a week later, we spent a few weeks tightening the turnbuckles some more. That was miserable work since the buckles were about 8-10 feet high. We walked around them with a big pipe ever so slowly retightening them. I sort of remember that there were 102 column points.

        I have lots of anecdotes about Ironworking, having worked on Madison Square Garden, Giant Stadium, a bunch of office buildings, and of course, the World Trade Center.

        Thanks for listening,

        Dick Muller

        Comment


        • Originally posted by voodoochile View Post
          I only mentioned that there must be turnbuckles without any reference as to their location.

          Mike Wagner, you just released to the world a story that has eluded everyone since the renovation, and from the mouth of the man who had the biggest part in it. I was so intrigued reading what Dick Muller had said about the transformation from columns (not poles) to cables, and the fact that the expectation of the upper deck was that it would rise a mere quarter of an inch. With the unexpected drop of a quarter of an inch, a one half inch disappointment doesn't seem that big a deal, but if it's off, it's off.

          I was somewhat disheartened when he said "That's about it for now, Mike" since I was on the edge of my seat to learn what happened next. I assume he did continue the story later. I can't help but think how it would be to cut that last 5% of that column and expect it to go up, only to see it come down. That split second of fear that the upper deck was about to crash down on you would probably give me a heart attack. I wonder how a system such as that would work on a stadium here in Southern California with an earthquake banging it around.
          I guessed that a year ago - that part about the GS actually rising slightly when supported by cables. My reasoning was different though: The upper deck would be tensioned 1/4 to 1/2" above it's 1922 position because cables stretch to a certain degree under load - that is, empty, the upper deck would reside at point "1922+ 1/2". When loaded with a full house, it would lower to point "1922". Additionally, the cantilevered grandstand itself would also deflect some, under loads.

          Perhaps the engineers simply misunderestimated the amount of tension in the cables to maintain the deck at or a hair above its 1922 height.
          Last edited by NYFan1stYankFan2nd; 09-26-2009, 03:23 PM.
          RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."

          NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"

          RYS: "No, I am your father..."

          NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"

          RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!

          Comment


          • Locke40,

            I believe you could spend 100 million if enough blowhards said that is what it would cost. Budgets are always in question, but if your group has legs and enough plain folks get the press involved, of course the Gate could and should be saved. What has the press done so far? And think about the new Dallas stadium...$1.12 BILLION?? What are we in NY...pikers?

            Dick Muller

            Comment


            • Originally posted by paynoaks View Post
              SB,

              Thanks for the ego boost. I still have a copy of the Times...it is quite yellowed and wrinkled, though. I am not yellowed, yet...wrinkled maybe.

              As to the day the lst sticker was cut, we Ironworkers didn't believe it was going to work, so the joke was that we were all going to take the day off in case the whole thing gave way. There were about a dozen engineers and architects watching as I cut that last tiny piece. A big ooops followed. When we came back to work a week later, we spent a few weeks tightening the turnbuckles some more. That was miserable work since the buckles were about 8-10 feet high. We walked around them with a big pipe ever so slowly retightening them. I sort of remember that there were 102 column points.

              I have lots of anecdotes about Ironworking, having worked on Madison Square Garden, Giant Stadium, a bunch of office buildings, and of course, the World Trade Center.

              Thanks for listening,

              Dick Muller
              TWANNNNNG!!!!!!

              LOL! Couldn't resist. But I congratulate you on doing your part to tune up the largest GUITAR in the Bronx - probably in the world.
              RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."

              NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"

              RYS: "No, I am your father..."

              NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"

              RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by locke40 View Post


                NYFan1stYankFan2nd, I love your great work and sense of humor!

                BTW, this is my 1000th post!
                I noticed that you were on post 998 a couple days ago and I wanted to say something. Hope to have ya here for 2,000 as well!
                sigpic

                Comment


                • Dear Dick,

                  THANK YOU so much for coming on the site. Your knowledge and experience on the renovation are fascinating and most interesting. We are truly honored and grateful to have you here.

                  Most Sincerely,
                  Mike

                  Comment


                  • Thanks for coming here to share your expertise Mr. Muller. Greatly appreciated.

                    :applaud:
                    www.demolitionofyankeestadium.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mike Wagner View Post
                      Dear Friends,

                      Here is part of my telephone interview with Dick Muller on June 15, 2008.
                      Dick was an ironworker on the Yankee Stadium Renovation. The full interview will appear in my Yankee Stadium Renovation book when I find a publisher.

                      Dick was a dream to work with!!! Dick is a wonderful historian and gentleman.

                      -Mike Wagner



                      There’s a picture of Joe D. leaning on a rail on the subway platform. Do you
                      see the stringers up there? The bottom of those stringers look like they’re
                      sitting in no-man’s land. The bottom of those stringers are attached to the top
                      of the vertical trusses. The first thing we did was put the vertical trusses in.
                      Then we attached a couple of extra pieces of steel to the mezzanine and the
                      upper deck. The stringers were then put on top of the vertical trusses. You can
                      see how that would balance off the overhang, or cantilever, from the upper
                      deck and mezzanine.

                      The metal that looks like steps – that’s the stringer. That’s a pre-cast piece of
                      concrete. From the top of the old grandstand was where the end of the new
                      vertical truss was put, thereby connecting the stringer to the top of that. The
                      sneaky part of Yankee Stadium is that all the seats that they lost, because there
                      were no more seats behind where the new vertical truss was. All those seats
                      were lost. To gain back those seats, they put the new grandstand seats way up
                      high. But in the mezzanine, they lost all those seats because the vertical truss
                      went into that seat area quite a bit.

                      M.W.: I know you had to get rid of the poles in order to cantilever the Stadium.

                      D.M.: The columns. The columns. Use the right terminology here. To get rid of the
                      columns, we had to balance out the cantilever by adding seats to the top, and
                      then hoisted to the cable. The top of the cable is attached to the bottom of the
                      stringer, as well as the top of the vertical truss.

                      The bottom of the cable was actually a turnbuckle. The turnbuckle was
                      enormous. We couldn’t pick it up by hand. It was eight or nine feet long. The
                      turnbuckle is an extension of the cable, and was located on the outside of the
                      stadium near the top of the grandstand. The cable has to remain taut. There
                      has to be a tension. The bottom of the turnbuckle was attached to the very
                      outside of the building. The other end of the turnbuckle went to the cable,
                      which went to the very top of the vertical truss, which was where the stringer
                      sat.

                      M.W.: This sounds like the same way a bridge or tent is put up.

                      D.M.: If you think of a seesaw, where the middle of the seesaw is that vertical truss
                      that attaches to the bottom of the stringer. And, now you’ve got this huge 77
                      foot cantilever, which is an enormous cantilever that stretches out. We’ve
                      eliminated the columns. You can see in the photo that there are columns on
                      the left side and not the right side. Imagine how much work those columns did.
                      Now, how the heck are you going to take that column out and balance it? With
                      the use of the weight of the stringers and the new seats, and the cable and
                      turnbuckle pulling down and lifting up the cantilever. Do you understand it
                      better now?

                      M.W.: Yes, I do.

                      D.M.: If I remember correctly, Arrowhead Stadium, in Kansas City, is cantilevered.
                      It was completed in 1972. It was a similar cantilevered and cable system.
                      Cables have enormous tensile strength. They’re made of really fine steel, and
                      sewn together. John Roebling was the inventor of what they call “wire rope.”
                      He built the Brooklyn Bridge, and that was the first use of wire rope. They
                      realized it has enormous, enormous strength with regard to tension.

                      D.M.: We didn’t think Yankee Stadium was very strong. We felt it wasn’t as strong
                      as it should have been. All the iron workers thought a 77 foot cantilever was
                      way waaayyyy too much for the renovation. We made jokes about it the day
                      we cut the columns out. Everything was done. We hadn’t cut the columns
                      down yet. All the tension and all the turnbuckles and all the cables were all
                      tightened to specs, and all that downward pull from the outside was supposed to
                      take all the weight off the columns, so that when we cut the columns – the
                      overhang – the mezzanine and upper deck, were supposed to spring up a tiny
                      bit, like a quarter inch. That would prove that the whole balance and truss
                      system worked! All the theoretical balancing points and cables - all that weight
                      - that it was a solid design that was going to work.

                      My job was to pre-cut the columns. So, I went around everyday with
                      an acetylene torch and pre-cut all the columns. Pre-cut means you leave a little
                      sticker. You cut the column about 95% through. So, I sat for days – I killed
                      myself in the process – with lead paint and an acetylene torch. I cut these huge
                      holes in the rivets and columns. I just left the stickers on the columns.
                      Structurally, since everything was in tact on the back, there was no
                      compression on these columns anymore.

                      Then came the day when I cut the first sticker. All the engineers were there.
                      All the big shots were there with their measuring devices, like reverse
                      micrometers so they could see how much the column went up. So, I cut the first
                      sticker, and the column came down a quarter of an inch. It was supposed to go
                      up a quarter of an inch. “Uh oh!,” big time “Uh Oh!” So, we stood there while
                      all the engineers and architects were checking out what to do, and at the end of
                      the day they laid us off for a week. They were trying to figure out what was
                      going on. Was this an acceptable mistake? As I recall, it was supposed to go
                      up a little bit. It didn’t. It went down a little bit. As far as the accuracy is
                      concerned, you can have a fault of one sixteenth of an inch or so, but not much
                      more than that.

                      So, they brought us back after a week. Their solution was to put extra tension
                      on the turnbuckles. For weeks, we went around and manually tightened
                      turnbuckle after turnbuckle. It was an awful job because the turnbuckles were
                      galvanized. They weren’t machinery smooth, and weren’t made to be moved.
                      Once you set them up, you had to tighten the daylights out of them. That’s
                      about it for now, Mike.

                      M.W.: Thank you again for your kindness, Dick.

                      Not to mention they also re-gained some seating at the Field Level by adding 5? 10? more? rows behind Third base all the way round to First). This pushed the diamond out away from the grandstands so it was fully visible from just about any seat in YS.
                      RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."

                      NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"

                      RYS: "No, I am your father..."

                      NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"

                      RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!

                      Comment


                      • Unbuilding(Bronx Style)

                        Some decades ago David MaCaulay published a book, where, as the product of a bizarre business deal between NY and Saudi Arabia(?), the Empire State was dismantled and sold to that country. It was titled "UNBUILDING". http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...ce=grid_widget

                        In the process, the building went to the bottom of the ocean when the tanker carrying its carefully numbered parts was broken up at sea during a violent storm. But as the building was dismantled through the book, one learned of how it was originally constructed.


                        And here, for 2009, is a pictorial release of "UNBUILDING - Bronx Style":
                        (Regrettably, this structure will not be sold or reassembled anwhere - although I thought a small wealthy British West Indie might appreciate its presence - Grand Cayman! Perhaps they could have restored its outfield to Dimaggio - Mantle dimensions which would have accommodated world football league bouts in addition to US football & baseball and gosh knows whatever else they could host down there.)
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by NYFan1stYankFan2nd; 09-26-2009, 07:55 PM.
                        RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."

                        NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"

                        RYS: "No, I am your father..."

                        NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"

                        RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ZeoBandit View Post
                          It's more fun (not to mention faster) to just cut the cables and run like hell.
                          I said this before remember:

                          Do like they did in "Die Hard". Remeber the scene where the guy is bypassing the alarm cables and the bad guy, that Russian Gudanov or whatever the hell his name is just sawz-all's all the cables real quick.

                          That's the way to do it!!!!
                          Last edited by cgcoyne2; 09-26-2009, 09:20 PM.
                          Jimmy Dugan: Because there's no crying in baseball. THERE'S NO CRYING IN BASEBALL! No crying! (Tom Hanks, "A League of Their Own" (1992)

                          Comment


                          • You have to give the engineers and architects the benefit of the doubt. If they expected the severed column to lift away a quarter of an inch only to see it drop by the same fraction, a total miscalculation of half an inch, a minuscule amount considering what they were working with, I wouldn't beat myself up over it.

                            It may appear that geometry was more of a factor than weight, but wouldn't it be true that with 102 weight bearing points that they may not all be supporting the exact same amount of weight? I would expect that if another column had been cut initially, a different result may have been reached due to weight differences.

                            Furthermore, if all the columns had been cut simultaneously, the engineers and architects may have had their expectations realized with a quarter inch lift all the way around. Because the upper deck would then be supported by the cables alone, it would level itself horizontally like water. Of course, this is only speculation, because, after all, what the hell do I know?

                            Mr. Muller, thanks for responding to my post, I appreciate it, but I still want to know where the engineers and architects were standing when you cut through that first column.

                            Comment


                            • The engineers were all right around my spot, because that is where their instruments were located. The real odds of a disaster were small given that all the surrounding columns were still attached. Don't forget that there were no seats, rythmically chanting fans, or light towers. Interesting point...when we had to walk out on the mostly horizontal part of the light towers, the nasty part of beam walking is considerably more frightening because the further you walk out, the further the slope of the stands increases, totally exaggerating the distance you could fall. No room for oops.

                              As to giving the engineers the benefit of the doubt, consider that when a bridge is designed, somewhere around a 6X safety factor is built in. What is the worst case scenario, a totally filled bumper to bumper traffic jam.. collapse... at worst a few thousand deaths. At a filled, chanting baseball stadium...uhhh, 40 or 50 thou doa's. Shouldn't the safety X factor have been proportionately higher?? It wasn't!

                              Dick Muller

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by paynoaks View Post
                                The engineers were all right around my spot, because that is where their instruments were located. The real odds of a disaster were small given that all the surrounding columns were still attached. Don't forget that there were no seats, rythmically chanting fans, or light towers. Interesting point...when we had to walk out on the mostly horizontal part of the light towers, the nasty part of beam walking is considerably more frightening because the further you walk out, the further the slope of the stands increases, totally exaggerating the distance you could fall. No room for oops.

                                As to giving the engineers the benefit of the doubt, consider that when a bridge is designed, somewhere around a 6X safety factor is built in. What is the worst case scenario, a totally filled bumper to bumper traffic jam.. collapse... at worst a few thousand deaths. At a filled, chanting baseball stadium...uhhh, 40 or 50 thou doa's. Shouldn't the safety X factor have been proportionately higher?? It wasn't!

                                Dick Muller
                                So the safety margin above what RYS(Renovated Yankee Stadium) could carry, semi-live, was not as high as you and others might have suggested? Were we just lucky for 33 seasons? After all, the existing out-building(my term for the structure facing the streets, with gates on it, and concourses inside) was not particularly deep - by today's standards, and most of the framing, both there and of the seating bowls themselves, that was re-used was from the 1920s. Adding all that steel for the new upper-upper deck concourse and the counter-weight box beam(to which the turnbuckles & cables were anchored) placed a lot of demand on such vintage infrastructure - especially when the grandstand hanging from it was loaded to capacity.

                                And what are your feelings about the "rocker" piece that fell from beneath the LF Upper Deck onto the Loge level in April 1998? If anything, that was the initial catalyst for what has been constructed across 161st street from the old Stadium.
                                Last edited by NYFan1stYankFan2nd; 09-27-2009, 07:15 PM.
                                RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."

                                NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"

                                RYS: "No, I am your father..."

                                NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"

                                RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!

                                Comment

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