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Yankee Stadium [I] Demolition

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  • I'm all for saving the gate. I think it would be a great addition to the park

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    • Hell, they could use the outfield wall for handball or raquetball, so it's not like you can't put these historic walls to use for the community.

      SAVE THE GATE, SAVE THE KIOSKS, SAVE THE WALL!
      No one can make you
      Do what they want to
      You know you're stronger
      Than the lies
      That they tell you

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      • Originally posted by scooterfan View Post
        Those who don't like Fenway are in the minority. They drew 3 million and just about everybody showed up. You never see empty seats at Fenway and their fans don't leave early. The Yankees sold 4.2 million seats the last few years and I'm sure only 3.5 million showed up. Shea sold well over 3 million tickets but most games Shea was half empty because of no shows and ticket brokers gobbling up tickets. Same thing with the Yankees.

        Face it folks, as big as the Mets were during the 80s, and as big as the Yankees have been since 1996, when it comes to baseball fandom New England loves its Sox more than New York loves the Yankees and the Mets. This is one of the reasons why New England never would have tolerated the destruction of Fenway.

        Newer, and bigger doesn't always mean better. Boston Garden was a great place to watch a basketball game. Some of those seats in the balcony high above courtside gave the best views in the NBA. All these NBA arens have decks that are all recessed far back to accommodate the luxury suites and the views suck.
        Sorry, I just can't agree. Fenway is much smaller in capacity, only 37,000, and that makes it a harder ticket. As such, the fans that DO get tickets are generally going to take advantage of their opportunities to see games there. The fans don't stay because they love Fenway, they stay because the team is playing well.

        As far as brokers buying up tickets, what on earth does that have to do with the dedication of the fanbase? The answer is nothing. You're grasping at straws here - either that or you're a Sox fan with a Yankee user name. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone with too much time on their hands trolled a forum under the guise of being a fan of another team.

        I went to a Yankees Red Sox game at Fenway in 1994, with my high school Honor Society. We were able to get tickets a day or two before game and sat in RF. It hasn't always been the way it is now. Red Sox fans are like any other fans. When the team started being successful, that's when they started staying the whole game, and that's when it became a hard ticket. If the Red Sox has Kansas City Royal type success over the past 15 years, you'd be able to buy tickets left and right and the place would be a ghost town by the 7th inning. It has nothing to do with Fenway Park. Sorry, but it just doesn't. Even as recently as 1998, before the Sox starting being annual contenders for the playoffs, the Red Sox averaged a paltry 28,500 fans per game. (Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/te...S/attend.shtml). That's 5,500 below the sellout level of Fenway at the time, or only 84% of full capacity. What was the problem back then? Why couldn't they sell out every game? Fenway was still one of the oldest, most historical parks in baseball in 1998, but the Sox were well over 5,000 people per game short of what was an even SMALLER capacity at the time (approx 34,000). Where were those dedicated fans then? Where were the "Fenway Faithful" fans that are just clearly a cut above us Yankee fans who don't care like they do?

        Not that Fenway park doesn't have it's historical charm, but an old ballpark without a good team is just an old building.
        Last edited by Pinstripes; 03-30-2009, 08:14 PM.
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        • Originally posted by scooterfan View Post
          Those who don't like Fenway are in the minority. They drew 3 million and just about everybody showed up. You never see empty seats at Fenway and their fans don't leave early. The Yankees sold 4.2 million seats the last few years and I'm sure only 3.5 million showed up. Shea sold well over 3 million tickets but most games Shea was half empty because of no shows and ticket brokers gobbling up tickets. Same thing with the Yankees.

          Face it folks, as big as the Mets were during the 80s, and as big as the Yankees have been since 1996, when it comes to baseball fandom New England loves its Sox more than New York loves the Yankees and the Mets. This is one of the reasons why New England never would have tolerated the destruction of Fenway.

          Newer, and bigger doesn't always mean better. Boston Garden was a great place to watch a basketball game. Some of those seats in the balcony high above courtside gave the best views in the NBA. All these NBA arens have decks that are all recessed far back to accommodate the luxury suites and the views suck.
          Don't confuse opinion with fact. The fact that the redsox sell out games in a stadium that seated 20k less than either NYC stadium circa 2008 does not make their fan base or loyal or loving.

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          • Baseball attendance was down in all of baseball throughout 1994 because everyone knew a strike was a foregone conclusion. And no, I'm not a closet Red Sox fan. I can however concede they have gone a far better job running their organization than the Yankees over the last 6 years. Epstein has beaten Cashman like a rented mule over countless deals the last several years. Who would you rather have, Kei Igawa or Dice K? Tony Clark or David Ortiz?

            I live in Red Sox Nation. Believe me, the Red Sox are huge up here. I don't have the ratings but it would be interesting to compare the YES ratings compared to NESN.

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            • And I'd just like to point out that I'm not trying to knock current Red Sox fans. I have nothing against them, other than them being my bitter rival. I have friends who are Sox fans.

              Scooterfan was attempting to knock the Yankee fanbase for not being up in arms to try and stop them from building a new Stadium, whereas Red Sox fans would never let them tear Fenway down. Well, we'll just see what happens when the place finally reaches the end of its usable life and structrually can't survive any more. But nevertheless, my firm assertion is that the Yankee fanbase wasn't more upset about a new stadium because for many of us, Yankee Stadium was torn down in 1973.
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              • For what it's worth, it looks like the Heritage Field plan is somewhat different now, according to the most recent plan map posted on the NYC Parks page. Heritage Park now, according to this plan, follows the old Stadium contour less closely, more obliterating the original footprint:
                Attached Files

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                • Originally posted by Pinstripes View Post
                  And I'd just like to point out that I'm not trying to knock current Red Sox fans. I have nothing against them, other than them being my bitter rival. I have friends who are Sox fans.

                  Scooterfan was attempting to knock the Yankee fanbase for not being up in arms to try and stop them from building a new Stadium, whereas Red Sox fans would never let them tear Fenway down. Well, we'll just see what happens when the place finally reaches the end of its usable life and structrually can't survive any more. But nevertheless, my firm assertion is that the Yankee fanbase wasn't more upset about a new stadium because for many of us, Yankee Stadium was torn down in 1973.
                  we might be signing a different tune if the yankees didn't remodel in the 70's, but they did and i am fine with the new park. charm is great in theory, but when that charm places you behind a pole or has your seat angled away from homeplate you might want to reconsider.

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                  • Originally posted by scooterfan View Post
                    Baseball attendance was down in all of baseball throughout 1994 because everyone knew a strike was a foregone conclusion.
                    But what about 1998, the raoring comeback of baseball? Fenway had an average of 5,500 empty seats that year. It's not about strikes, it's not about how good of a stadium you have. It's all about how good the team is. Fenway fans don't show up (just like every other team's fans) when the team isn't good. It's just the way it works.


                    And no, I'm not a closet Red Sox fan. I can however concede they have gone a far better job running their organization than the Yankees over the last 6 years. Epstein has beaten Cashman like a rented mule over countless deals the last several years. Who would you rather have, Kei Igawa or Dice K? Tony Clark or David Ortiz?
                    Mostly luck. Nobody saw Ortiz coming. That's just one example. The Yankees have won more games in the past 10 years than the Red Sox (or over any multi-year span, for that matter). The only difference between the two teams is very much due to the fact that the Yankees have been unfortunate in the playoffs, failed to get healthy and hot at the right time, etc. If they had been able to close out the 3-0 lead over the Sox in the 04 ALCS, the Sox might still be looking for their first WS victory in 90 years. People forget the Sox got knocked out in the first round in 05, and didn't make the playoffs in 06.

                    When it comes to a best of 5 or a best of 7, especially with all the days off they've squeezed into the playoffs lately, it's as much luck as it is ability. Any team can beat any other team, and with extra days off in the first round best of 5, it favors teams with a lack of depth. Relievers get extra days to rest, whereas in a longer series with less days off, bullpen depth is a necessity. In a best of 5 with extra days off, you can throw your best two starters in 4 out 5 games, as opposed to needing a 4th or 5th starter.

                    But anyway, you're missing the point. This thread, and your entire point, was with regard to fan dedication, not about ownership and their personnel/player decisions. That's irrelevant to this discussion, and you're deflecting the issue now.



                    I live in Red Sox Nation. Believe me, the Red Sox are huge up here. I don't have the ratings but it would be interesting to compare the YES ratings compared to NESN.
                    Boston has one baseball team. The Yankees have the Mets to compete against, as well as nearby teams in Baltimore and Philly. The entire northeast/NewEngland area has one team. It's awfully hard to compare. YES gets by far higher overall total viewers, I do know that. As far as local percentages, I'd guess that NESN is higher, but once again, mostly because if you are a baseball fan in New England there's really only one local team to root for.

                    Once again though, this isn't about ratings or such. It's about the fanbase's dedication to good ol Fenway.
                    Last edited by Pinstripes; 03-30-2009, 08:37 PM.
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                    • You're not singing a different tune because you've all bought into the hype. The Yankees PR machine has done a great job selling the notion that the new stadium is a replica of the old stadium. Mike Francesa was on the radio again today repeating the talking points.

                      I'm a big Francesa fan but Mike's an instutionalist. An establishment type, meaning that Mike's part of the elite club and whatever conventional wisdom is Mike will echo the sentiment with an occasional disagreement. Chris Russo is one of the few in New York who disagreed with the stadium, and he left to take more money and his voice is sorely missed. Most people have bought into the myth that the new ballpark is vintage Yankee Stadium. But it's not. It's your typical HOK offering. If you take a shot from the centerfield camera and film the infield decks it looks no different than all the other HOK ballparks. All these parks have the same hideous press box features with the lower and upper decks stacked unattractively beneath and above each other.

                      The only features that differ from the other parks is the symmetrical configuration of the outfield upper deck and the fact this stadium doesn't have ugly outfield stands that are recessed back back like in philadelphia.

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                      • Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy View Post
                        Hell, they could use the outfield wall for handball or raquetball, so it's not like you can't put these historic walls to use for the community.

                        SAVE THE GATE, SAVE THE KIOSKS, SAVE THE WALL!
                        Well all right, that's the spirit!

                        Speaking of the kiosks, I found something pretty interesting. Something I hadn’t previously realized. I was going through my pictures to see when the kiosks showed up by Gate 2 as I had posted "1923/1928?" earlier today with regard to their age. So I checked beginning with 1923. Nothing early on. No kiosks by 1928. Then I found the photo posted below taken in 1937 during the RF grandstand construction. Still no kiosks! They never got there even by the '60s.

                        Sooo, it looks to me like they were moved from either Gates 4 or 6 to their current location during the renovation. As we know, those gates got the "pods" that we all hate and they rendered the kiosks redundant as the tickets booths were moved under the "pods". Gate 2 remained relatively unchanged (or less changed) as the escalators in that area were set within the stadium footprint.

                        Does anyone recall these kiosks being relocated? I counted them tonight. There were eight opposite Gate 6, six at Gate 4, and the two smaller ones up against the stadium wall between these two gates. I think that there's five or six now near Gate 2.

                        I'm quite sure that these kiosks are original and pre-date the renovation as they look old and looked old in 1976. I think the roofs may have been replaced at that point, though. I do remember thinking this at the time. Also, I recall reading something during the renovation about the kiosks being saved.

                        Mike Wagner (if you read this): is this something that you've covered in your YS renovation book?

                        In any case, even if relocated, these kiosks are historic. I believe that all of the Gates 4 and 6 kiosks date back to 1923, by the way. So let's SAVE 'em!!!

                        Regards,
                        Mark
                        Attached Files

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                        • If someone has access to the YES/NESN ratings please give them to us. I'm not denying that New York isn't a great baseball town, but Boston's the best. I was doing a little reserach and came across ratings for the 2003 ALCS. Game 2 of the ALCS the game on FOX did a 50 share in Boston, and a 26 in New York. Meaning that 50% of the people watching tv in the Boston tv market were watching the baseball while 26% in the New York tv market were watching the baseball game.

                          The Red Sox are a religion in New England. The Yankees are big, but they don't dominate the way the Red Sox dominate most of New England. As big as the Yankees are now, when I was a kid in the 80s the Yankees were second class citizens in New York. From 1984-1992 the Mets absolutely owned the city and Steinbrenner had to play stupid games to stay on the back page. In the early days of WFAN from 1987-1992 the Mets dominated the discussion on WFAN. Even Francesa didn't talk about the Yankees. Francesa didn't start talking about his love for the Yankees on a consistent basis until the 1995 playoffs.

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                          • Originally posted by scooterfan View Post
                            You're not singing a different tune because you've all bought into the hype. The Yankees PR machine has done a great job selling the notion that the new stadium is a replica of the old stadium. Mike Francesa was on the radio again today repeating the talking points.

                            I'm a big Francesa fan but Mike's an instutionalist. An establishment type, meaning that Mike's part of the elite club and whatever conventional wisdom is Mike will echo the sentiment with an occasional disagreement. Chris Russo is one of the few in New York who disagreed with the stadium, and he left to take more money and his voice is sorely missed. Most people have bought into the myth that the new ballpark is vintage Yankee Stadium. But it's not. It's your typical HOK offering. If you take a shot from the centerfield camera and film the infield decks it looks no different than all the other HOK ballparks. All these parks have the same hideous press box features with the lower and upper decks stacked unattractively beneath and above each other.

                            The only features that differ from the other parks is the symmetrical configuration of the outfield upper deck and the fact this stadium doesn't have ugly outfield stands that are recessed back back like in philadelphia.
                            You can keep repeating it, but that doesn't mean I have to buy this stuff about the new stadium being crap, generic, ugly or whatever. One person can look at a photograph or a painting and find it stale and ugly, while another can want it blown up and placed on their living room wall. We're all different. But just because I love the look and feel of the new stadium doesn't mean I'm drinking kool aid, or heaven forbid listening to what Francesa is saying.

                            This has nothing to do with PR, hype, or propaganda. Every single PR entity in every walk of life spreads the hype when it comes to a new product that they're trying to sell. That doesn't make me want it. I like the new stadium, and it's got not a single thing to do with buying into any propaganda. I'm not a lemming.

                            And this has nothing to do with me not liking the original (1923) Yankee Stadium, because I loved it. I never saw a game there - wasn't born yet - but I wish I could go back and see THAT stadium. I have a very sentimental attachment to that stadium, despite never having seen it in person. If that stadium still existed, I'd be a lot sadder to see it go.
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                            • Different people have different tastes.

                              It's not too hard to comprehend, really.
                              No one can make you
                              Do what they want to
                              You know you're stronger
                              Than the lies
                              That they tell you

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by scooterfan View Post
                                If someone has access to the YES/NESN ratings please give them to us. I'm not denying that New York isn't a great baseball town, but Boston's the best. I was doing a little reserach and came across ratings for the 2003 ALCS. Game 2 of the ALCS the game on FOX did a 50 share in Boston, and a 26 in New York. Meaning that 50% of the people watching tv in the Boston tv market were watching the baseball while 26% in the New York tv market were watching the baseball game.
                                Once again, the Red Sox are the only thing in town. It's hard to equate. If you add the Mets and Yankees (YES+SNY) viewership percentages together, the total percentage is in-line with the NESN percentage.

                                The Red Sox are a religion in New England. The Yankees are big, but they don't dominate the way the Red Sox dominate most of New England.
                                This didn't happen until the 2000's. The Red Sox didn't dominate anything (either on the field or to their fanbased) in the 90s. It's all about success. People jumped on that bandwagon just as fast as they did everywhere else when the local team started winning. It's religion because the Sox have won two World Series in the past 5 years. Not because the people who live in New England and the Boston area are somehow different human beings than those who are Yankee fans. These myths that fans are different in some areas than in others is laughable. Any team that has sustained success becomes a cult favorite, and any team that has sustained failure for an extended period of time has an apathetic, indifferent fanbase. It's the way sports works, I don't care where you are.
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