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  • Mike Epstein

    What does he say about hitting? What is he trying to teach to batters about mechanics?

  • #2
    Ahhhh, Superjew, as he used to call himself. I went to his web site -- http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com -- and have to admit I'm intrigued. He claims he is the leading teacher of "rotational hitting", which is gaining adherents. As near as I can tell, the differences from more conventional hitting are that the hands start lower and closer to the body than usual, and the hitter lets his hips propel that hands forward and lead to a slight upswing and high finish to match the plane of the incoming ball.

    I'd worry that for some kids that approach won't generate enough power to get the back through the strike zone, and kids would be more prone to pull their head off the ball. Anyone have any experience with it?
    sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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    • #3
      Rotational Hitting Yes Of Course

      himself. I went to his web site -- http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com -- and have to admit I'm intrigued. He claims he is the leading teacher of "rotational hitting", which is gaining adherents. As near as I can tell, the differences from more conventional hitting are that the hands start lower and closer to the body than usual, and the hitter lets his hips propel that hands forward and lead to a slight upswing and high finish to match the plane of the incoming ball.

      I'd worry that for some kids that approach won't generate enough power to get the back through the strike zone, and kids would be more prone to pull their head off the ball. Anyone have any experience with it?


      ALL i can say is get your kid to learn the rotational method.Another great website to try is batspeed.com. spend the money on an instructional hitting video using rotational theories.

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      • #4
        Wogdoggy said: ALL i can say is get your kid to learn the rotational method.Another great website to try is batspeed.com. spend the money on an instructional hitting video using rotational theories.
        I'm starting to think that the rotational system would work well for my son. I went back and looked at a video of the best hit he had last year, and realized that by happenstance that's pretty much what he was doing. I've seen other, older kids doing it and didn't have a name for it but was amazed how much power the could generate with a short stroke.

        I've looked at Epstein and Batspeed.com -- both look good, but Epstein seems a bit absolute, insisting that you have to select to go exclusively with one system or the other -- rotational or linear.

        Someone who seems less doctrinaire/absolute about choosing between the two systems is Mike Schmidt, whose book seems to be pretty well praised. It can be found at:

        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...26235?v=glance

        Wogdoggy, you seem to talk a fair amount of sense on these boards. Any particular video you think would be worth the $20 or so it would cost?
        sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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        • #5
          I would start with batspeed.com video.the reason i like this one is its more intriguing for a kid from 9 to 14 then epstein's .batspeed.com has some easy drills the kids can work on by themselves.They also have a message board at the sight where the devoloper will answer questions that you have about the video etc.That is a nice add on too.For all the money you spend on this and that during a season,I guarantee you this will be the best money you spend.

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          • #6
            Wogdoggy said: I would start with batspeed.com video.the reason i like this one is its more intriguing for a kid from 9 to 14 then epstein's .batspeed.com has some easy drills the kids can work on by themselves.They also have a message board at the sight where the devoloper will answer questions that you have about the video etc.That is a nice add on too.For all the money you spend on this and that during a season,I guarantee you this will be the best money you spend
            Wogdoggy, exactly what kind of experience did you have with this video? How old and how experienced was the kid you used it with? What kind of problems/deficiencies did he start with and how were they corrected? What kind of results did you get? I am tempted to get the video...
            sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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            • #7
              He had a slow swing and made half A$$ attempts at hitting the ball,This is a mechanics video ,it shows the difference between rotational style and linear style.It has two kids in it where they show drills with a heavy bag.The instructor shows different styles of rotation,he mimmicks Sosa,Bonds McGuire,Sheff,Etc Etc ans shows how no matter whta these guys do before the swing they all end up in the same spot.When my one boy was "keyed "in last year he would hit pull shot line drives to left field.This type of swing promotes line drive pull hitting like you see with bonds, big mac and more recently Abreu.Did you see how many HOME RUNS he PULLED at the derby this year? THATS the PERFECT rotational swing.Go to the website and scroll thru the different areas. by the way Both my kids improved dramatically ,11 yr old and 14 yr old.The 11 yr old at 65 lbs playing travel with more physically mature kids led his teams in batting for the 1st three quarters of the season and then he dropped off considerably when grandpa starting taking him golfing.1 month after the season his eyesight was corrected from a -2.50 to - 3.25.I dont know ???? But i think the golf swing made him stiifen and straighten his bottom hand on loading which cheated him from power,,I Know the eyesight did'nt help either.The 14 yr old has blasted balls over the fence this year and has hit some awesome balls.The KID,,,, He thinks he's Albert Pujols,I broke the news to him and told him he was too polish.lol.
              Last edited by wogdoggy; 10-04-2005, 04:59 AM.

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              • #8
                Hey, you're a prince for getting back to me so soon on it. I think I'll go ahead and bite the bullet and spend the $39 for the DVD. Did you buy the swing analysis as well?

                I'd never really paid much attention to Abreu, but looked around to see if I could get a good luck at his swing. I finally found an MLB clip of most of his 41 homers at the All-Star HR Derby, and I see what you mean about his rotational mechanics. They really are impressive. And, his swing is really consistent, time after time. You can view the streaming clip at:

                http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/ev...5/hr_derby.jsp
                sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  But does abrue swing like that in a game????????.........big difference when you are telling someone what to pitch you and how you swing, than when your facing Roger Clemens and he's pitching you what HE wants to pitch you....yes I will agree that the swing needs to remain the same....but to err is human, and as a human(and baseball player) you WILL adjust your swing at EVERY AT BAT..depending the on the pitches your seeing.....NO Swing IS perfect!!!!, but the 1500 players in baseball all have a perfect swing(and how many different styles do you see in those 1500)!!!!...(keep the the mechanics to the basics but DONT TEACH 1 STYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)....If you disagree then please tell me when was the last time you were at bat in a major league game!!!!!!!!!!!(btw did you strike out or hit into a DP???)


                  Just remember NO quarterback was signed to a mutli-million dollar deal for completing 30% of his PASSES!!!!!!!!
                  img]http://baseball-fever.com/images/statusicon/forum_new.gif[/img]

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                  • #10
                    you put the MOE in moron...IF you disagree when was the last time you even got the FRIES right.Wake up kid.

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                    • #11
                      Videos won't do it all

                      Originally posted by Ursa Major
                      Hey, you're a prince for getting back to me so soon on it. I think I'll go ahead and bite the bullet and spend the $39 for the DVD. Did you buy the swing analysis as well?
                      Videos are good, but the fact is; you can't really learn just from a video. If you don't understand the underlying philosophy, or facts of what is being taught, you might not actually emulate what is being taught. You need an instructor to watch you and correct you as you learn.

                      Neuro scientists have learned that it takes 200-300 correct repitions to learn complex physical movements to the point that you just do them unconciously. And, that applies to learning from scratch. If you have already learned a movement like the swing, and then try to make changes; it takes 1,500 to 3,000 correct repititions to re-program the brain. If you don't have somebody watching you swing, and you do it wrong, you are just inserting a different incorrect program.

                      You need to video your son often, as you try to change and compare what he is doing, to what you see on the video. It also helps to know WHY you are supposed to do something, and what the pitfalls are if you do it differently.

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                      • #12
                        Based upon your statements as to what you understood from reading Epstein's website, I can tell you that you don't understand what he is saying.

                        Tony Gwynn has no idea how a swing actually works either,


                        Anybody can own a training center,and believe me there are tons of people affiliated with training centers that dont know diddley either,,,but i always wonder about a guy that bad raps others,especially tried and true players like tony gwynn haveing NO IDEA at all...but yet of course you do.You know the best ,nyman mankin and epstein and the worst lau and hudgkins...apparently dave did it with smoke and mirrors for 10 yrs,,,I dont care for daves stuff either but he does have some great stuff too...there is no absolute.

                        wondering why you didnt stay with the epstein instruction for your clinic? did it have the name recognition you thought? not enuf referrals for the 5 grand? You owning a hitting clinic give you absolutely no instant credibilty anybody with a few thousand to invest can open one...get off the high horse and realize you put your pants on one leg at a time too.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wogdoggy
                          Based upon your statements as to what you understood from reading Epstein's website, I can tell you that you don't understand what he is saying.

                          Tony Gwynn has no idea how a swing actually works either,

                          Anybody can own a training center,and believe me there are tons of people affiliated with training centers that dont know diddley either,,,but i always wonder about a guy that bad raps others,especially tried and true players like tony gwynn haveing NO IDEA at all...but yet of course you do.You know the best ,nyman mankin and epstein and the worst lau and hudgkins...apparently dave did it with smoke and mirrors for 10 yrs,,,I dont care for daves stuff either but he does have some great stuff too...there is no absolute.

                          wondering why you didnt stay with the epstein instruction for your clinic? did it have the name recognition you thought? not enuf referrals for the 5 grand? You owning a hitting clinic give you absolutely no instant credibilty anybody with a few thousand to invest can open one...get off the high horse and realize you put your pants on one leg at a time too.
                          You're entitled to your opinion. I gave mine. I clearly stated that I was giving my OPINION. Mine is based upon extensive, thorough, objective study of the beliefs of each of the people I mentioned. I also, stated that it was MY OPINION, not that I know it all. What is your position based upon? I also stated exactly why I'm not with Mike anymore.

                          I also, suggested that people study all of the people I named and make their OWN judgment. I just gave MY analysis to throw into their decision process. I didn't tell them mine was the end all, that's what Nyman thinks of himself, not me. You obviously can't comprehend what you read.

                          Are you a Gwynn fan? Is that the reason for the hostile response? Gwynn could DO IT, but it doesn't mean he can teach it. He actually believes that the body sequence of a swing is; hands, shoulders and hips. Exactly the opposite of what it really is and that can be proven, or you can just take Ted Williams' word over Gwynn's. Ted was much better than Gwynn.

                          Yeah, anybody can open a training center, but I happen to put a lot of work into learning what is best, and the best way to teach it, and my students are having a lot of success.
                          Last edited by jbooth; 11-10-2005, 09:53 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Boys, boys, boys! You're two of my favorite guys on this site, and I hate to see you go at it. Now, Wogdoggy, I don't think there's any call to jump on JB by saying, "Anyone can open a training site." Fact is, I'd rather listen to someone who's got a 'brick and mortar' business that relies on local word of mouth than a guy with an internet site and a video who relies on promotional gimmickry. So apologize and go back and play nice, and maybe we can talk about the merits of the various systems and web sites, which is what the original post was about, right?

                            Looking over all the opinions JB uttered in the last few posts, I can't really find much to disagree with about any of them, even where he accuses me of now knowing what I'm talking about. Back on September 21st, when I was talking about my first impressions of Epstein's site, I said, "As near as I can tell, the differences from more conventional hitting are that the hands start lower and closer to the body than usual, and the hitter lets his hips propel that hands forward and lead to a slight upswing and high finish to match the plane of the incoming ball." In hindsight, I realize that I did miss the main points of Epstein's system by a mile. See, that's when I asked you smart guys for advice, bought the batspeed.com video and love it (as does my son), and I'm almost a smart guy too.

                            I think a starting point for any comparison of the systems is assessing the target audience. On rotational hitting, I think Jack Mankin's BatSpeed.com is focused more on younger (8-12) kids, and it sorta tops out at the experienced kids. Epstein doesn't have nearly as much free info on his site or in his forums, so I can't be sure, but it sounds as though he gives a lot more detail that would be of assistance to the 14+ age bracket. BatSpeed, by contrast, seems to leave out a lot that you need to pick up elsewhere (usually on the site) -- e.g., the ideal grip and how to hit pitches in various locations.

                            This gets to your best point among many good ones JB, which is that videos can get you only so far. I view the Batspeed video and others that I've bought and books I've read as a starting point for my own observations and successful experience. I think what has drawn me to being a rotational adherent recently is not just that I'm picking and choosing arbitrarily from success stories, but that the system as taught by Mankin and, apparently, Epstein makes sense to me. Just like you may not know as much as your doctor, but if what he or she is telling you sounds like gobbledygook made up on the fly to try to convince you of their opinions, it's time to get a new doctor.

                            BTW, JB I went to the web site for your First Pick Training Club. I was amazed to see that we're almost neighbors! (I'm just across the Richmond Bridge in Berkeley, and I have a cousin who lives in Novato (but their family sport is tennis, not baseball.) I think the fact that you can in one session have a tubby, fiftyish woman reporter with a bad dye job hitting line drives in high heels ought to be the greatest testimony to your system! It was hard to tell much about the hitting due to the age range of the kids shown (and that kid in the "Club" video was dropping his hands before he launched ), but I really liked the pitching motion you had all the kids doing. (Although, what is a kid who looks like he's 8 doing pitching from the stretch; do any leagues in that age bracket allow leadoffs, or is that just a teaching technique to isolate the later part of the motion?) My son has a strong arm, but he tends to shorten up on his leg raise (or corkscrew the leg back towards second) and not get that nice reach back ('scapular loading', if you will) that your kids have, so a lot of his pitches tend to go low and outside to righties. He's got a semi-pro pitching coach to work with on that, cuz gawd knows he won't listen to me.
                            sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              it seems to me he just came across as a know it all,gwynn dont know crap,this guy has a big ego this guy is linear this guy is that and i own this and i know that...thats all,,just a lil too much.to just dismiss hugkins is ridicoulous,,yeah he is somewhat linear but if you look at his stuff some of its good too..like the way he holds the bat.etc...so you can find some great stuff in everbodys stuff if you look hard enough,,,thats all.

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