Hiding the ball better?

[EdmondsFan#1]

Okay, i need some help on this.

I can throw a 4-seamer hard , but my 2 seamer has great movement. But my 2 seamer is also slower, so i figured i could make up for that if i had an explosive fastball instead of a fast fastball. So does anyone know anyway to hide the ball better?

I always thought throwing overhand would work, but i'm not sure how well it works because i'm not the one seeing myself. Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

[GFK]

... Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

Different style arm actions hide the ball better then others. Look into what is called the "Inverted W" arm action. Others have called it the "Inverted Goal Post" style arm action. A good example would be Smoltz. With this style of arm action, the ball is hidden from the batter until it explodes forward.

Word of warning. If you have been throwing a baseball for a few years, changing your arm action is going to be very difficult if not impossible.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I've only been playing baseball for 2 years, i side-armed my first year and now i have a 3/4 arm slot, but i'm good with every one.

Edit: What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

[Chris O'Leary]

What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.

Here's Mark Prior making the inverted W...



It's no coincidence that Prior has recently had shoulder problems.

Here's Anthony Reyes making the inverted W...



I see shoulder problems ahead for him.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is there any other factors of hiding the ball?

Limiting how much you reverse rotate your shoulders (e.g. taking the ball back toward 2B) will make it harder for the batter to see the ball.

Greg Maddux is widely regarded to be sneaky fast, which is why he has been effective for so long. He reverse rotates less than most people. He also DOESN'T make the inverted W.



Also, here's Nolan Ryan NOT making the inverted W.

[jojab]

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.

Okay predictor of shoulder problems, he used Smoltz as his example. When do you predict he'll blow his arm out and be out of baseball?

That's okay though, I remember when you thought scap loading was terrible and unecessary, too. That was until you realized it is what most pitchers do.

Here is Smoltz's "W".

[GFK]

I've only been playing baseball for 2 years, i side-armed my first year and now i have a 3/4 arm slot, but i'm good with every one.

Edit: What is this inverted W thing? If this is what i think it is i heard it puts alot of unneccisary stress on the rotator cuff...

EdmondsFan#1, you are going to come across a scaremonger at every corner when you start talking about pitching mechanics and training. Is there risk involved with pitching? I hope you don't need me to answer that. Everything has a certain amount of risk to it. Even doing nothing has risk to it.

Don't be blindly led by what some popular guru or internet wonk tells you. Look at lots of slow motion video of what the MLB pitchers are doing. Bump it against what the gurus and wonks are telling you!

[Chris O'Leary]

Okay predictor of shoulder problems, he used Smoltz as his example. When do you predict he'll blow his arm out and be out of baseball? That's okay though, I remember when you thought scap loading was terrible and unecessary, too. That was until you realized it is what most pitchers do. Here is Smoltz's "W".

First, Smoltz HAS had a series of shoulder problems. See September of 2005 for the most recent shoulder problems that I can find...

- http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/flb/req...VE&Param0=4232

Second, the frame that you show demonstrates that Smoltz doesn't do it as bad as Mark Prior or Anthony Reyes, which may explain his longevity.

Third, I have changed my opinion of scapular loading (and is one place where I break with Mike Marshall). While I don't think it's something that guys should focus on (because I think it happens naturally), I do think that there is a safe way to do it; to keep the elbows below the shoulders.

If you decribed this as making a horizontal W, then I would have less of a problem with your advice.

[Chris O'Leary]

Look at lots of slow motion video of what the MLB pitchers are doing. Bump it against what the gurus and wonks are telling you!

I completely agree.

And if you look for the inverted W (or actually just a plain old "M"), you generally will only find it in guys who have had shoulder problems. More often than not, you will see a horizontal W in the greats like Seaver, Ryan, Gibson, and Clemens.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Chris,

My pitching instructor told me to have my Elbow above my shoulder today...

At first i was listening to you, but i do throw alot harder having my elbow above my shoulder... Infact, he said that having the elbow below my shoulder made my body want to side arm the ball more, which causes shoulder problems he says...

He also taught me to keep everything square with my target *land with my feet closed and rotate my hips without pointing my foot foward* , this all seems completely wrong to me...


Edit: Nevermind, i don't think that he taught me the inverted W, because my hands were not facing downwards, he told me to have the elbow above my shoulder but the top of my hands were facing the sky, if that makes sense.


But i did throw harder, and less painfully.

[GFK]

...He also taught me to keep everything square with my target *land with my feet closed and rotate my hips without pointing my foot foward* , this all seems completely wrong to me...

Go with your gut feeling, look at some video. How many MLB pitchers do you see that land with their front foot closed to the plate?

There are lots of individuals (well meaning or not) out there who will take your money for pitching and hitting instruction that is counter to what the best of the best are doing.

[EdmondsFan#1]

Go with your gut feeling, look at some video. How many MLB pitchers do you see that land with their front foot closed to the plate?

There are lots of individuals (well meaning or not) out there who will take your money for pitching and hitting instruction that is counter to what the best of the best are doing.

I don't know how many do land with their foot closed to the plate? I can't find like any mlb pitcher videos.

[CanadianKid]

The inverted W is a terrible, and completely unnecessary, thing for a pitcher to do (greats like Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens didn't do it). It can lead to problems with both the rotator cuff and the labrum.

Here's Mark Prior making the inverted W...



It's no coincidence that Prior has recently had shoulder problems.

Here's Anthony Reyes making the inverted W...



I see shoulder problems ahead for him.

Oh so that's what that arm action is called. I've seen Jake Peavy doing it and I thought it was weird and didn't know what it was called.

[GFK]

...I can't find like any mlb pitcher videos.

Go to the following and remember to thank John Sigler (jsiggy)

http://imageevent.com/siggy

[EdmondsFan#1]

Limiting how much you reverse rotate your shoulders (e.g. taking the ball back toward 2B) will make it harder for the batter to see the ball.

Greg Maddux is widely regarded to be sneaky fast, which is why he has been effective for so long. He reverse rotates less than most people. He also DOESN'T make the inverted W.



Also, here's Nolan Ryan NOT making the inverted W.

How do you reverse rotate your shoulders as little as possible? I'm confused.