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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???
    And are you suggesting that pitchers like...

    - Nolan Ryan
    - Greg Maddux
    - Randy Johnson
    - Roger Clemens
    - Sandy Koufax

    ...make the M or Inverted W?
    Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

    Comment


    • #17
      So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

      Do you really know know what the inverted W is?

      Or is it what you "think" you know??

      Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?

      Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.

      And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".

      http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/...1/m/5661062822

      bbscout
      HSBBWeb Old Timer

      Posted May 17, 2007 11:02 PM

      quote:
      Originally posted by thepainguy:

      quote:
      Originally posted by PGStaff:
      Are there any accurate statistics available of M's vs W's = shoulder and elbow injuries?


      Not yet.

      Everything I have is anecdotal so far.

      This is one of the things I am working on for the team I am working with. They think there may be something to the "M" versus "W" distinction, but my contact isn't yet completely convinced.

      However, it is interesting to look at guys who are in the HOF. You see far more W's than M's, and the guys who make the M (e.g. Drysdale) tended to have shoulder problems.


      To say that Drysdale tended to have shoulder problems is nonsense.He never had any arm problems until his last year. He pitched 12 consecutive years without missing a start, which is an all time record. He pitched well over 3000 innings during that time. He had 167 complete games. His career ended because the doctors back then did not know how to repair the injury that he sustained. Clemens had shoulder surgery in the late 80's, Randy johnson has had elbow and back surgery. Greg Maddux has taken about a dozen cortizone shots. Nolan Ryan had elbow surgery. Marichal retired due to back and shoulder problems. Koufax had to call it quits due to elbow problems that would have been fixed in about a month today. Clemens, Ryan and Johnson came back due to the advances in medicine.

      On your site you mention that Jeff Weaver has a delivery that should hold up.....well, he is on the DL with shoulder problems.

      Tekulve, Vandermeer,Quisenberry, Myers and many other side armers never had back problems.

      Heck, Smoltz has been pitching pro ball since he was drafted in 1985......you should pray that the kids you hang out with should have such a great delivery, great stuff and last as long. he is 40 years old and still throwing gas and winning.
      And

      bbscout
      HSBBWeb Old Timer

      Posted May 18, 2007 05:06 PM

      Painguy, Also, on your site you list Bert Blyleven as a delivery with serious elbow and shoulder problems. Where did you come up with this???? Blyleven pitched for 22 years in the big leagues until he was 41 years old. He pitched nearly 5000 innings and had 242 complete games. He was injured one year.....at age 31 he missed most of the season and then came back to pitch 10 more years.

      How long did you expect him to pitch? until he was 50?
      You are handing out misinformation and it makes me hot. Using Blyleven as an example of how not to deliver a baseball is just plain dumb.
      Last edited by justthefacts; 06-05-2007, 07:32 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
        Do you really know know what the inverted W is? Or is it what you "think" you know??

        Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?

        Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.

        And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".
        Welcome Chameleon, my old friend. I recognize you by your relentless personal attacks and by your utter lack of substance.

        Rather than pointing people to your master's web site and writings, which do not answer the question, why not just answer it directly?

        How about starting out with a simple "Yes" or "No".
        Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
          So are you suggesting the inverted M and W are good for young prepubescent arms???

          Do you really know know what the inverted W is?
          Or is it what you "think" you know??
          Again do you have and more importantly have you studied Nyman's materials?
          Until you can say yes to both of these questions it is a waste of time "debating" with you or anyone else.
          And while you are at it why don't you check what DMac and others think about O'leary's (thepainguy) mechanical "expertise".
          You didn't answer my question. Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?

          I will answer yours... Yes I do know what the inverts are. I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

          So again I will ask... Are you suggesting inverts are good for young arms??
          "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
          - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
            And are you suggesting that pitchers like...

            - Nolan Ryan
            - Greg Maddux
            - Randy Johnson
            - Roger Clemens
            - Sandy Koufax

            ...make the M or Inverted W?
            I am not suggesting anything I am merely asking a question about the Inverts.

            To answer your question I feel the way Johnson extends the elbows behind the plane of the body (by at least 6" according to your estimations) is injurious to young arms. I feel it puts exessive strain on the anterior parts of the shoulder, but I readily admit -I'm no doctor.

            I hate it when these discussion bounce from guys like the above to the average young pitcher. The guys listed above are freaks of nature not some 13 y/o trying to figure it out. Randy Johnson is 1 in a million, maybe many millions. Why would we teach inverts of any kind to youngsters???
            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

            Comment


            • #21
              The games people play

              I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

              What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

              Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?

              And how do your credentials stack up against Paul Nyman's?

              "Paul Nyman has looked at throwing the the baseball like no other has. His unique way of looking at how the arm and body learn to throw from the most efficient way to how one learns to throw is truly remarkable. No one, and I repeat no one, has looked at more video, done more research and left no stone unturned in the quest of finding out about the throwing process than he has. Step aside and let you ego go for a moment and see what he has to offer. As a professional coach I did and it has opened up a whole new view for me. While I have gained my pitchers have been the ones who have benefited and in essence isn't that our job as coaches."

              Brent Strom ( Brent Strom, former Major League Pitcher, Major League Pitching Coach and Pitching Co ordinator Washington Nationals)

              "My name is Ron Wolforth and I own an Academy in Houston Texas and work with 96 pitchers on a weekly basis. I have written 3 books on pitching and consult for 19 other Academies, 7 NCAA DI schools and 3 Major League Organizations. Our school has produced 20 drafted pitchers in the last four years including Scotty Kazmir, Sam Demel & Troy Patton. We have sent 36 pitchers on to college scholarships in that time frame. In 2000 I was certified in the Tom House system.

              I consider Paul Nyman the premeir expert in the world today on the science of throwing a baseball. No one single person has had more impact or influence in our teaching methodology and philosophy than does Paul Nyman. I hold him with tremendous amount of esteem and respect. Simply put, when Paul Nyman speaks...we listen. In my mind he has no peer with regards to understanding and explaining the way the arm & body throw the baseball...and that certainly includes Tom House, Dick Mills or Mike Marshal. His ideas have helped hundreds of our pitchers go to the next performance level AND create more durable and healthy arms."

              Ron Wolforth (Ron Wolforth, developer of the nationally recognized The Athletic Pitcher program, Pitching Central, and The Teaxas Pitching Ranch)


              Paul,
              You are absolutely the best as far as presenting a pragmatic strategy relative to throwing the baseball. Your cause and effect explanations are not only science based but they make sense.Most of all they work.I have been doing this over 40 years and I think I know what is "eyewash" and what works. I have changed more for the good in the last three years as a result of interfacing with you than any other time in the previous 37+ years. The thing that I really like about you is that you are consumed by the journey knowing that the destination is always going to be just beyond our reach.Please feel free to edit this as you see fit and use my name whenever and wherever it will help you.

              Jerry Weintein (Jerry Weintein, California Rockies, Los Angeles Dodgers, member of the California Community College Baseball Hall of Fame and Sacramento City College Sports Hall of Fame)

              I have known Paul Nyman for approximately 3 years. My first encounter with him was at a pitching seminar where he described many of the methodologies that he currently uses to train pitchers. At first, Paul's techniques seemed radical and misplaced in what I knew/believed to be "true" in the world of baseball. After a 2 hour discussion with him at the opening of an elevator door, his techniques and methodologies seemed less radical and more appealing than before, and my sense of what was "true" in baseball became less believable. At best, Paul will change the way you coach and train throwers. At the very least, Paul will make you think about the way you coach and train throwers! Baseball needs more Paul Nyman's, that is to say, out of the box thinkers/practitioners who do not adhere to the "that's the way it has always been done in baseball" mentality.

              Derek Johnson (Pitching Coach Vanderbilt University. Derek Johnson is now in his sixth season as an assistant coach for the Commodores and is widely considered one of the top pitching coaches in the country. Three of his last four three staffs have led the Southeastern Conference in ERA while also being ranked nationally at No. 15 (2003), No. 7 (2004) and No. 17 (2005) respectively.)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                I am not suggesting anything I am merely asking a question about the Inverts.

                To answer your question I feel the way Johnson extends the elbows behind the plane of the body (by at least 6" according to your estimations) is injurious to young arms. I feel it puts exessive strain on the anterior parts of the shoulder, but I readily admit -I'm no doctor.

                I hate it when these discussion bounce from guys like the above to the average young pitcher. The guys listed above are freaks of nature not some 13 y/o trying to figure it out. Randy Johnson is 1 in a million, maybe many millions. Why would we teach inverts of any kind to youngsters???
                Jake, I was agreeing with you.

                I think the M/Inverted W isn't just bad for YOUNG pitchers. I think it's bad for ALL pitchers.

                Also, I have looked at Randy Johnson at length and while he makes the Horizontal W, he doesn't make the Inverted W. His elbows never get above the level of his shoulders (the yellow line in the image below). This can be a little hard to see (I was fooled myself) by the fact that he leans forward toward 1B (the white line in the image below).



                The above frame is from this clip...

                Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 06-05-2007, 08:40 AM.
                Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
                  What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

                  Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?
                  I define excessive strain as strain that...

                  1. Exceeds the limits of the body and thus increases the risk of injury.
                  2. Is not necessary to throwing well or hard.

                  Chameleon, you have never answered my question why the M/Inverted W is so important if you don't see it in the arm action of...

                  - Nolan Ryan
                  - Roger Clemens
                  - Randy Johnson
                  - Sandy Koufax
                  - Greg Maddux
                  - Tom Seaver
                  - Tom Glavine
                  - Roy Oswalt
                  - Dan Haren

                  Are you saying that none of those guys throw well or hard?
                  Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
                    I have spent extensive time with Kenesiologists, PT's, former pro pitchers and Orthopedist specializing in sports medicine and I have yet to have one of them demonstrate that the exessive strains placed on the elbows and shoulders are good.

                    What is the definition of excessive strain? How do you measure it? Where is the line between excessive strain and necessary strain? The entire argument posed by those who are against the inverted W is based upon their opinion with not a single fact to support it.

                    Again I ask how much do you actually know about the inverted W in terms of the why and what fors?

                    And how do your credentials stack up against Paul Nyman's?
                    Ahh now I see who you are.....

                    You just won't answer the question. You answer questions with questions, yet you ask for credentials. Same ole same ole. I'll ask it again if it needs to be repeated..

                    To answer yours (for the benefit of others)... we had an orthopedist surgeon at our clinic this past season that demonstarted the dangers of posterior over-extension, and the dangers of the inverts with arthroscopic pics. This doc has done extensive work with ASMI and is a former Team physician for the Mets. He has also performed Tommy Johns on an ever-increasing number of youngsters listening to traditional pitching coaches. His finding were supported in the same clinic by PT's who also presented at the clinic. The pics of the damage were graphic enough that several coaches had to leave the room.

                    Earlier this year this again was supported by Dr. Michael Joyce at the 2007 World Baseball Convention. Dr Joyce is one of the leaders in orthopedic sports medicine. And again the graphics were bad enough where coaches had to leave the room.

                    But enough about what I know... You'll have me chasing the credential ghost forever without ever answering the question if I allow it - some things never change...

                    So I'll ask once again.. Are you suggesting we teach inverted M's and W's - and I'll add this... are you suggesting we teach posterior shoulder over-extension in young pitching???
                    Last edited by Jake Patterson; 06-06-2007, 07:15 PM.
                    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                      Ahh now I see who you are. You just won't answer the question. You answer questions with questions, yet you ask for credentials. Same ole same ole. I'll ask it again if it needs to be repeated..

                      To answer yours (for the benefit of others)... we had an orthopedist surgeon at our clinic this past season that demonstarted the dangers of posterior over-extension, and the dangers of the inverts with arthroscopic pics. This doc has done extensive work with ASMI and is a former Team physician for the Mets. He has also performed Tommy Johns on an ever-increasing number of youngsters listening to traditional pitching coaches. His finding were supported in the same clinic by PT's who also presented at the clinic. The pics of the damage were graphic enough that several coaches had to leave the room.

                      Earlier this year this again was supported by Dr. Michael Joyce at the 2007 World Baseball Convention. Dr Joyce is one of the leaders in orthopedic sports medicine. And again the graphics were bad enough where coaches had to leave the room.
                      Jake, good luck getting him to answer the question. I haven't been able to.

                      By way of backing up my point of view on the M/Inverted W and and a related problem that I call Hyperabduction, here is an e-mail that I recently received from a fairly prominent orthopedic surgeon...

                      Chris I am an orthopedic surgeon, and would like to offer you a theory on why the inverted W is bad to the long term health of the shoulder.

                      In the position of hyper abduction, elevation and extension of the distal humerus above the shoulder (inverted W) the inferior glenohumeral ligament is placed on stretch. The humeral head must lever against it to advance the arm forward. This ligament is the primary anterior stabilizer of the glenohumeral joint with the arm elevated (i,e. pitching). In other words, this position places this ligament under tension, then it is levered against in order to throw. This eventually will either loosen the shoulder, or tear the anterior labrum. It should be recognized this ligament is under stress during the "normal" delivery. If you traumatically dislocate your shoulder, this ligament is a key part of the pathology. Shoulder instability in turn leads to impingement, and other problems. Conversely, when the elbow is below the shoulder, this ligament would not be as stressed.

                      Also, the specific use and timing of the muscles about the shoulder is critical. They have done muscle activity studies during throwing, and there are distinct differences between amateurs and professionals. There is also evidence for muscle use differences in the healthy shoulders, and the ones that aren't.

                      I am not a shoulder guru, certainly not a pitching guru, but am interested in pitching mechanics. Like you, I learned from others while coaching little league/AAU, and agree there is a lot of misinformation out there.


                      If you don't believe me, then believe him.
                      Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        That dooode is not Chameleon my friends.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Don't have a dog in the fight but I do think anyone serious about this subject would do well to include Nyman and Wolforth in their reading.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Encinitas View Post
                            That dooode is not Chameleon my friends.
                            Well, the style is certainly the same...

                            1. The personal attacks.
                            2. The answering of questions with questions.
                            3. The general lack of substance.
                            Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Most people today don't understand the "birth" of the scap load debate.
                              The awareness resulted from the need to know why DMills said to circle-up and don't allow the elbows to go behind the shoulders....hence his circle-up fence drill. Most of our time was spent debunking Mills "philosophies" because he could not/would not explain the mechanics of the high velocity pros that were of lesser stature that didn't follow his $million recipe. Unfortunately, not allowing for early scap load (elbows being pulled behind the shoulders earlier) resulted in excessive strain on the front of the throwing shoulder, ie., the shoulder was taking most of the force/strain when the shoulders turned/rotated to throw.

                              Today, Chris (and others I suppose) has a theory (and that's all it is) to try to explain shoulder and elbow injuries based on the direction and amount of internal rotation of the shoulder, the ability to abduct up, perpendicular to or down relative to the spine...how much is too much, how high is too high, or conversely, how low is too low to gain the most efficiency and avoid injury.

                              Point being, scap abduction is an important upper torso load to unload in order to throw hard....don't take away the value of the load as seen in most all hard throwing pros. The physical makeup of the individual IMO dictates the direction of the load.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mark H View Post
                                Don't have a dog in the fight but I do think anyone serious about this subject would do well to include Nyman and Wolforth in their reading.
                                Agree .
                                "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                                - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                                Comment

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