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  • #31
    Stever, good to hear you weigh in!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by stever View Post
      Most people today don't understand the "birth" of the scap load debate. The awareness resulted from the need to know why DMills said to circle-up and don't allow the elbows to go behind the shoulders....hence his circle-up fence drill.
      This is an idea that Mills likely "borrowed" from Mike Marshall.

      As I have said repeatedly, I think Marshall (and thus Mills) is wrong about this. If you look at guys like...

      - Maddux
      - Ryan
      - Johnson
      - Clemens
      - Koufax
      - Seaver

      ...their elbows DO go behind their backs.

      It's a fact.

      However, and I think critically, their elbows DO NOT go above the level of their shoulders.

      While pitchers like Mark Prior do make the M/Inverted W, it's not an accurate description of the arm action of guys like...

      - Maddux
      - Ryan
      - Johnson
      - Clemens
      - Koufax
      - Seaver









      Also, I just saw some video of Pedro Martinez throwing and his arm action is now pretty much identical to the above (where before it was more of an M).
      Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

      Comment


      • #33
        DMills invented the smelting pot of mechanics, and appeared to me that he used what he thought was the most common postures and mixed those together to formulate his set of desirable mechanics.

        But just for grins.......why don't you mix apples with apples and take a look at all of the pros you think have undesirable elbow lifts (or scap loads) and compare their postures with those above at the same point in time, ie, ball/hand nearing or passing through the high zone.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by stever View Post
          But just for grins.......why don't you mix apples with apples and take a look at all of the pros you think have undesirable elbow lifts (or scap loads) and compare their postures with those above at the same point in time, ie, ball/hand nearing or passing through the high zone.
          Here you go.

          Notice the height of the PAS elbow as the forearm is vertical. I don't think it's a coincidence that these guys have had problems with their shoulders.

          Papelbon...



          Wainwright...



          Hamels...



          Also, in terms of Reyes...



          ...and Prior...



          ...the height of the PAS elbow -- while not necessarily being bad in and of itself -- sets up problems later on, in particular increasing the distance and force with which the PAS upper arm externally rotates.
          Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 06-07-2007, 11:42 AM.
          Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

          Comment


          • #35
            No one here fits the bill. Hand must be passing through the high zone.....Prior and Reyes are no where close. Consider the shoulder tilt as well. Just because the glove shoulder is lower than the throwing shoulder, doesn't mean the elbow is higher than that plane of the shoulders.

            Comment


            • #36
              Some of you have been very naughty and earned the ire of N#!$^/s-e-t-p-r-o

              http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8842

              The internet and video are ruining throwing, unless,of course it's Nyman using the internet and video.

              Same with golf. Don't use golf info unless it comes from Nyman.

              he's far worse in hitting, but in throwing, as always, he has 2 BIG problems he's blind to, trying to overcome them by emphasis on "Trial and error" raher than understanding body sequence well.

              turn back hip into front - better forget that "cue".

              and total lack of understanding lead arm action - see Wolforth or especially Hodge to fill in this dark area.

              Even in his animation in this link he can not even adequately emulate what is seen in the clip for the front arm.

              You wonder why he hides behind the pay perview option ?

              Comment


              • #37
                It's too bad... There is much to learn, especially as it applies to teaching youngsters. The problem seems to be there are those who would rather discuss how unqualified others are versus engage in any meaningful discussion.

                Based on my personal knowledge I could easily say that unless you have read all of Dr. Michael Joyce's work you are unqualified to discuss this issue, but what value does that bring to the table?

                The thread goes on and on and Justthefacts/PN won't answer the question...

                Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?

                Please I am trying to learn.

                Jake
                "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I actually had a session today and I did have some urge to try inverted W with the good timing... I actually had a feel that my shoulder kind of hurted than my normal arm swing, so I just went back. Maybe it's not for me
                  What Igawa does for fun:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7KzVSA7eBY

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Jake-

                    Just pony up at setpro and Nyman will reveal all, but it's proprietary so don't tell anyone.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tom.guerry View Post
                      Jake-

                      Just pony up at setpro and Nyman will reveal all, but it's proprietary so don't tell anyone.

                      pro·pri·e·tar·y

                      ADJECTIVE:

                      Of, relating to, or suggestive of a proprietor or to proprietors as a group: had proprietary rights; behaved with a proprietary air in his friend's house.

                      Exclusively owned; private: a proprietary hospital.

                      Owned by a private individual or corporation under a trademark or patent: a proprietary drug.

                      Source: Heritage
                      "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                      - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Empty words??

                        It's too bad... There is much to learn, especially as it applies to teaching youngsters. The problem seems to be there are those who would rather discuss how unqualified others are versus engage in any meaningful discussion.

                        And just what are your credentials/qualifications that allow you to judge the inverted W? What throwing mechanics information, specifically arm action, have you brought to the table?

                        Based on my personal knowledge I could easily say that unless you have read all of Dr. Michael Joyce's work you are unqualified to discuss this issue, but what value does that bring to the table?

                        Other than telling us that a player who exceeds their normal range of motion capabilities increases their risk to increase susceptibility, exactly what does Dr. Michael Joyce's work do for the player or parent in terms of improving their abilities to throw the baseball?

                        The thread goes on and on and Justthefacts/PN won't answer the question...

                        I'm not sure what thread you're reading but the one on SETPRO contains more information than you've ever provided regarding the inverted W.

                        Are you suggesting that the Inverted W and M is good for a young arm?Please I am trying to learn.

                        How does anyone judge what is good or bad? Is it bad because some doctor says that too much stress potentially causes injuries? The question I asked previously is a valid one how does one measure too much stress on the arm? And where are the studies that say a particular arm action is less stressful than another type of arm action? And is it possible that depending upon the athletes genetics, that one type of arm action may be more suitable than another (see the illustration on a separate website showing the difference and flexibility between a championship class butterfly swimmer and a lesser performer http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8842 )?

                        Supporting your belief that the inverted W is bad for young players based upon the general premise that stress beyond normal limits is bad is suspect at best.

                        It appears that Derek Johnson, pitching coach at Vanderbilt University, who coached the first player selected in the Major league draft as well as the eighth player selected in the Major league draft, has more faith in Paul Nyman's knowledge and information then you do.
                        Last edited by justthefacts; 06-18-2007, 10:35 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          a question for Justthefacts

                          So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
                          I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by justthefacts View Post
                            How does anyone judge what is good or bad?
                            ???? How? Surgical experience, biological studies, biomechanical research, kenesiology, experience, etc, etc, etc.

                            Asking this question just further complicates what most youth coaches already struggle with. Why cloud the issue further?

                            Is it bad because some doctor says that too much stress potentially causes injuries?
                            YES, especially those who have thoroughly researched the issue. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect that each and every coach MUST fully understand every biological or kenesiological aspect of the game.

                            If your auto technician tells you to keep oil in your car do we need to fully understand the inner workings of the combustion engine to feel comfortable about his advice or do you take it at face value based on HIS qualifications?

                            Supporting your belief that the inverted W is bad for young players based upon the general premise that stress beyond normal limits is bad is suspect at best.
                            Then offer some information that says different. Is it good to teach children this or not??

                            BTW I am NOT a doctor, kenesiologist or bio-mechnical expert, just a coach who continues to learn.
                            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by randy View Post
                              So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
                              I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.
                              Randy, based on the information available, from a long-term arm safety standpoint it is not good. Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall and many others have researched this and I have yet to see one say it's good thing to teach. This does not mean injurious methods are not effective, many are. I think you are asking if they are safe and many feel the Inverts are not.
                              "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                              - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I don't think so.

                                Randy, based on the information available, from a long-term arm safety standpoint it is not good. Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall and many others have researched this and I have yet to see one say it's good thing to teach.

                                Are you saying that Joyce, Fleisig, Andrews, Marshall has specifically researched the inverted W and have demonstrated that is not good from a safety standpoint? If so please point me to their studies. Also please point me to the studies that show how much stress is being placed on the arm by the inverted W as opposed to other types of arm actions.

                                This does not mean injurious methods are not effective, many are. I think you are asking if they are safe and many feel the Inverts are not.

                                "many" again please be specific by citing exactly who these many are and where they specifically address the inverted W. I've yet to see any study that demonstrates the danger of the inverted W.

                                I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

                                randy, I put far more credibility to your remarks. I doubt that very many people do understand Nyman's stuff. My guess is about the same percentage the number of players making it from Little League to the major leagues.

                                BTW I am NOT a doctor, kenesiologist or bio-mechnical expert, just a coach who continues to learn.

                                just a coach who continues to learn. I don't think so. Looks more to me that you are looking for ways to validate your postings.

                                Comment

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