Inverted W

[Jake Patterson]

just a coach who continues to learn.[/I] I don't think so. Looks more to me that you are looking for ways to validate your postings.

Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

[randy]

That's what I'm trying to find out-is it or is it not? Most are saying no, and I'm trying to find out if anyone says yes...I can't tell if JTF's answer is a yes or a no or a maybe...

[Chris O'Leary]

So, to keep this simple as I am not a baseball expert...in your opinion, justthefacts, is the inverted W safe for my sons? They are 9 and almost 12 and pitch a little. The oldest throws pretty darn hard at this stage, so I do not want to put more stress on his growth plate and rc, etc, than they can handle...
I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

I'll tell you this.

The inverted W is obviously NOT necessary to throwing well or hard. I say that based on the fact that you do not see the Inverted W in the arm actions of...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Tom Seaver
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson

[justthefacts]

Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

Believe it or not I am trying to answer your question. I am also trying to show that this question is surrounded by smoke and mirrors by those who claim that they KNOW the inverted W is worse than any other type of arm action.

From your response it appears that you are unable to cite any specific negative references by your experts (Fleisig, Andrews, etc) pertaining specifically to the inverted W? And your negativity regarding the inverted W quite possibly is nothing more than YOUR opinion. Am I correct in this?

I'll tell you this.

The inverted W is obviously NOT necessary to throwing well or hard. I say that based on the fact that you do not see the Inverted W in the arm actions of...

Chris, please show me where Nyman says that the inverted W is the only way to throw the baseball hard or effectively. Do you really understand what Nyman sees in the inverted W? Please show us how much you know by first telling us why Nyman feels the inverted W is of value. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can't do this please shut up regarding the inverted W.

I as everyone, either inverted W pro or con, do you really know what the inverted W is other than your perception of what you think it is? Do you really understand what constitutes he inverted W other than what you think you are seeing. For those who are critics of the inverted W (Nyman), how many of you have read Rotational Throwing For Numbies. Specifically the section where Nyman discusses arm action and explains for different general types including long I mean, short arming, inverted W, and slinging.

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Tom Seaver
- Bob Gibson
- Randy Johnson

Contrary to Chris it is my opinion that all of these pitchers incorporate elements of the inverted W.

If you disagree, I ask the question again, do any of you really understand what the inverted W is? And can you explain exactly why Nyman thinks the inverted W has value? Before you critcize, please demonstrate that you actually know something about the inverted W other than what you think you know.

And last but not least please show me where you have worked with high-level players and or have coaches who have developed major-league prospects who have publicly stated that they use your methods. And that they respect your knowledge of how to develop high-level players. And Chris, saying that you worked as a pitching adviser for some scout of an some unnamed major-league team doesn't quite satisfy this requirement.

Answer these questions and I'll answer yours.

Then please... I'm begging you - for the fifth or so time- answer the question - Are you suggesting teaching inverted W's and M's is good for a young arm?

Or maybe you'll answer it for me.

[randy]

Instead of arguing, can you just answer my question-is it safe to teach my almost 12 year old and my 9 year old? YES or NO? Everyone else is saying no, and I'm trying to give you a chance to say yes, but you won't....maybe that tells me your answer.

[Jake Patterson]

And your negativity regarding the inverted W quite possibly is nothing more than YOUR opinion. Am I correct in this?

Ok - This is my opinion. Now will you answer the question?

[randy]

I asked you a simple yes or no question. Jake stated his position and tried to back it up with his experiences. Instead of attacking his position, how about answering the question and tryng to support it from your experiences.
People who have nothing to offer usually respond by trying to tear down the beliefs of those who do.
If you have a position, please tell me what it is and support it, so I can make a decision on what is best for my sons at THIS stage of their development, not 5 years from now AFTER puberty.

[justthefacts]

I tried to read some of Nyman's stuff, but was way over my head.

randy, I think you and Jake answered your own questions. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it.

[tom.guerry]

the most persuasive description I have seen is by Hodge in his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL tape.

He recommends a universal sequence where the hands break primarily by internal rotation and aBduction of the arm with varying degrees of associatedpronation being OK.

He finds that this seats the head of the humerus more stably into the socket and provides thr right amount of clearance for the tuberosity on the humearl head.

The next important loading requirement is for a smooth stretch/load of the tissues, not an interrupted off and on action at the shoulder.

I would review his tape if you can find a copy.

The appearance/"W" is variable. There can be good and bad "W".

The WORST "W" is probably when you break the hands wrong with the palms up and the elbows down as opposed to palms down and elbows up.

[randy]

thank you Tom, for a straightforward and sensible answer.
Just the facts, you answered no questions about the subject, but you answered all kinds of questions about your character...

[AcidLake]

I'm not skeptical, but doesn't getting the elbow over the shoulder stresses the arm?

[tom.guerry]

very hard to get elbow above shoulder withfull arm internal rotation first.

[GFK]

so I can make a decision on what is best for my sons at THIS stage of their development, not 5 years from now AFTER puberty.

Randy, the arm action that your kids develop pre-puberty will be very difficult to change 5 years down the road. Try to teach them such that they will not have to un-learn motor programs down the road. (Try changing the way you tie your shoes. See how long it will take before doing it the new way is automatic.)

If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it.

I have got to agree with justthefacts on this one. I think no instruction is a better option than faulty instruction.

[Jake Patterson]

I have got to agree with justthefacts on this one. I think no instruction is a better option than faulty instruction.

So what do you and JTF tell the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America? Don't teach? I asked JTF a simple question and he has yet to answer it. I know what Dr. Michael Joyce has said about the inverts as they apply to youth pitching. I know what Mike Marshal has said. JTF like many who consider themselves learned in the art of pitching would rather tell you what you don't know rather than answer straight forward questions like; "Are you suggesting we teach inverted W and M to youth pitchers." Based on the information I have to date - I don't.
Jake

[GFK]

So what do you and JTF tell the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America? Don't teach? I asked JTF a simple question and he has yet to answer it. I know what Dr. Michael Joyce has said about the inverts as they apply to youth pitching. I know what Mike Marshal has said. JTF like many who consider themselves learned in the art of pitching would rather tell you what you don't know rather than answer straight forward questions like; "Are you suggesting we teach inverted W and M to youth pitchers." Based on the information I have to date - I don't.
Jake

Jake, I wasn't taking a stand for or against the inverted W. I agree with JTF and Nyman that it is one of several viable arm action options. My oldest uses it, my youngest is nearer to short arm or slinger and my middle son has the dreaded long arm action. I have a few drills I picked up while at Setpro that I used to help them develop their arm action. They fell into what they use today. The youngest one's arm action is transitioning to a short arm as he does more short stop and catcher than he does P.

I am not concerned with "the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America". IME, those that are truely searching will find the information that they are looking for. I would suggest to Randy that he purchase some of Nyman's material on throwing. They background information alone would be money well spent. If anyone counts on "the 300,000 volunteer coaches in America" to teach proper mechanics to their kid, the odds are very much stacked against them.

Jake, I do applaud your desire to improve coaching as a whole. I think we have different game plans. Infect a few with good information. Then that few will go out and infect a few more with good information. Spread it like a virus.

Just to let everyone know, I am not a saleman for Nyman. I think he has some very good information. Truth be known, I haven't been able to get onto his site for a long time. Don't know why. Still, the information I have seen him present is top shelf.