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  • Yikes!---Here's what the

    http://www.midwestbaseballacademy.com

    On their definition sheet -

    Path of Swing - Linear movement, forward and down, short to long, hands inside the ball, lower body clears path, hands need to see ball, elbow in slot, bat head up, bottom hand pull, top hand punch, barrell release, palm up/palm down, stay long in hitting zone.


    Bwahahaha.

  • #2
    Yikes is right

    Comment


    • #3
      Midwest baseball is a good thing. Mostly because most kids who go to that will get SOME instruction versus none at all. Though midwest has a system most of the camps use whatever the local high school coach (who generally runs the camp) uses. Midwest is just the marketer. If you take midwest away many kids wouldn't get ANY work before the season. Take your pick on which is worse.

      Comment


      • #4
        If you take midwest away many kids wouldn't get ANY work before the season. Take your pick on which is worse.
        No sarcasm intended, totally serious. NO WORK is preferable to what is defined above. The kid w/ no work still has a chance to learn right.

        The kid swinging as described has a HUGE problem of unlearn / relearn. And the cruel reality is that the harder he works w/ sub-optimal mechanics, the harder relearning will be once they finally he is finally exposed to the MLB swing.


        BTW, this is becoming a pretty darned good site.

        Regards,

        Scott

        Comment


        • #5
          Scott,

          agreed but it is interesting what can happen in improper applications of more widely accepted methods too. Some of these guys could be great teachers with bad terms as measured by our dictionaries. Their teaching goals might be better than the word might imply.

          Using their launguage it could mean good things

          Linear movement >>> some rotational hitters fail to shift..some rotational hitters lose their axis and tilt early and swing up at high FB




          forward and down>>>> some rotational hitter drop and tilt and reverse pivot


          short to long, hands inside the ball>>>> some rotational hitter get long arms , break the box and wrap the bat around the ball


          , lower body clears path >>> some rotational hitters land closed, lock out the lead leg early and rotate around the rear hip and hit over the lead hip


          , hands need to see ball>>>> how no idea what that means


          , elbow in slot, >>> avoid rear elbow extension I assume


          bat head up>>> maintain axis and not dropping rear elbow before front side firming


          , bottom hand pull>>> connection to the proper shoulder


          , top hand punch>>>> might be more applicable for away pitches up in zone
          or watch the late top hand action on Hammering Hank

          http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/...ng/coiling.htm

          , barrell release>>> full transfer mechanics, releasing the wrist angle releasing the back side??



          palm up/palm down >>>> obvious


          stay long in hitting zone.>>> bottom hand lead, vertical body axis, stable front side base ability to adjust to locations

          I guess you would have to watch them or anybody teach just as Steve must be experienced

          Words give us an image of what somebody is about but is it accurate...I just don't know. I wouldn't start with that spill but what can they do with a hitter in front of them one on one working with what he has???????
          Last edited by swingbuster; 02-11-2006, 05:34 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Any cue that engenders proper mechanics is appropriate for that student on that day.

            But you are assuming the best possible interpretation for a very long string of what appear to be very bad cues, I think that is unlikely to be reality, for two reasons:

            1) Someone wanting to describe what goes on in the MLB swing - assuming they understood it - would probably pick words that describe it better. If for no other reason than people reading the description will assume the most common English (or hitting lexicon) useage for the words.

            2) So little youth instruction is correct. What is correct tends to be well described, because any one savvy enough to PROVIDE correct instruction has also been around the scene long enough to describe it well.


            As far as I am concerned, there is NO WAY that "elbow in the slot" is a good cue. I think virtually everyone studying the swing knows this is an "effect" not a "cause." There is about a 95% that "bat head up" means the instructors believe the bat head should stay above the hands, which is patently absurd. "Rear hand punch" can't possibly be a cue for anything other than pushing, and anyway, the rear hand shouldn't be doing ANYTHING in the swing. "Barrell release" means dropping the bat onto the ball - a pre-req since it is above the hands. I would note that "barrell" should also probably be spelled right in advertising copy. The idea of "staying long in the hitting zone" is good - IF it means getting on plane early. When it is the last thing described in a chronological sequence of things that happen in the swing, it means reaching through the ball on a linear path, and that is not good.

            Oh yeah, I have no idea what "hands see the ball" means. A first for me. I can only assume that it is a linear cue for extending the arms to meet the ball. Which means somebody bought a Hudgins video or something. Somehow, they got past the first 7 hours on proper (except it is improper) grip position and got to this section.

            Since I KNOW what these terms mean in the case of about 95% of the people using these terms - a crappy, linear, standard LL-type swing that is guaranteed to doom a hitter to mediocrity - I feel safe in assigning definition here.

            And if I am wrong about what REALLY goes on at the academy in question, I apologize in advance. Sincerely.

            But in general, parents should stay away from this type of instruction in droves. And if they do go, should go forewarned and ask a bunch of tough questions. If the answers prove to be similar to what you describe, well, OK. But I think that unlikely, and I suspect you do too. My posts here are awfully critical - for me, as those who have interacted w/ me on other boards realize. But I am increasingly intolerant of PAID hitting instructors who have never looked at a minute of video, are wed to their dogma, and who don't have a clue. One, because they are absolutely squashing dreams. And two, because if most of the rest of us demonstrated such vocational incompetence, we'd be starving. And should be.

            Best regards, Donny.

            Scott
            Last edited by ssarge; 02-11-2006, 08:10 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              But I am increasingly intolerant of PAID hitting instructors who have never looked at a minute of video, are wed to their dogma, and who don't have a clue. One, because they are absolutely squashing dreams. And two, because if most of the rest of us demonstrated such vocational incompetence, we'd be starving. And should be.
              I think two things that are uniformly unsuccessful are mass teaching and kids that want to play and are unwilling to put in the time or practice

              The big camps might reach a few with inspiration.

              What do you know about American Baseball Camps out of CA

              .

              Comment


              • #8
                What do you know about American Baseball Camps out of CA
                Donny, if this is directed at me, I'm sorry, I don't know. I am California based, but involved almost 100% in female fast pitch.

                Scott

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ssarge
                  Donny, if this is directed at me, I'm sorry, I don't know. I am California based, but involved almost 100% in female fast pitch.

                  Scott

                  Sarge..Could you possibly direct me to some good video clips of girls fastpitch softball? I own a academy and my partner has girls in softball, and MANY softball coaches teach a "HorseCrap" swing. I'd like to show him there there isn't much difference if any at all, between what we do and what they should do.

                  Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ssarge
                    No sarcasm intended, totally serious. NO WORK is preferable to what is defined above. The kid w/ no work still has a chance to learn right.

                    The kid swinging as described has a HUGE problem of unlearn / relearn. And the cruel reality is that the harder he works w/ sub-optimal mechanics, the harder relearning will be once they finally he is finally exposed to the MLB swing.


                    BTW, this is becoming a pretty darned good site.

                    Regards,

                    Scott
                    Agreed. But.... the camps that go on are taught USUALLY by the local HS coaches and their assistants so at least they are instructed by an assumed qualified person.

                    I'm not biased towards them at all but I have subbed at those camps when they are short on people a session or so. There is a general guideline they follow but they don't enforce "they have to hit like this" or "this is the way pitching is to be taught.". From the three totally seperate camps it has been this way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hiddengem
                      Sarge..Could you possibly direct me to some good video clips of girls fastpitch softball? I own a academy and my partner has girls in softball, and MANY softball coaches teach a "HorseCrap" swing. I'd like to show him there there isn't much difference if any at all, between what we do and what they should do.

                      Thanks
                      HG, unfortunately there's a lot more evidence of the bad swings being the "softball" swing than good ones. And most folks fall in line without questioning. But there are some decent swings out there. Some fastpitch hitter links with decent clips:

                      There's also some available with the RVP software - but I think the clips above are some of the best female swings out there. (Personally I like Rivera's.)


                      Didn't mean to answer for you Scott but I know it's late out in California. I'm sure he'll point you to some more good stuff... btw, very glad to see you're contributing here now.
                      Last edited by jsiggy; 02-12-2006, 01:14 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        David:

                        eMail me at [email protected], and I'll send you some clips. Let me know how much space you have for attachments in your eMail box - I may need to spend a few at a time.

                        John is right that Kristen Rivera, formerly of Washington has a near MLB quality swing.

                        Michelle Smith, sophomore at Stanford is very good.

                        Many of the ULL hitters are first rate - Danyele Gomez is my personal favorite.

                        There are some others.


                        Don Slaught / RVP is now selling 50 swings at 60fps for $59. Unfortunately, you have to use RVP to view them. Even more unfortunately, many of the swings show slotting elbows, bat drag, and top-hand dominant swings.


                        In general, the female swing is improving dramatically, although there is more traction at the 14A to 18Gold levels than anywhere else, IMO. Guys like Siggy are working w/ kids to build some great swings out there, and those girls will make their way to college soon enough.

                        There is now general acknowledgment that the female swing should emulate the MLB swing. A HUGE step forward. Of course, as we all know, understanding the MLB swing is not a cake walk. But what a step in the right direction from the sport's legacy - "hit the ball into the ground and run like hell." That legacy survives with some of the "old timers." Almost said dinosaurs; don't want to be pejorative. But I suspect you are encountering this at your academy.

                        IMO, the most profound thing EVER to happen to female hitting was the definitive statement by Sue Enquist (UCLA) and Mike Candrea (Olympic Team and Arizona) that the FP swing should be identical to the MLB swing. Starting w/ the fact that it should be up, not down. This was on the RVP instructional materials. HUGE.


                        Several challenges uniquely face the female hitter who wants / needs to develop the MLB swing (this is my opinion, and may not be shared by anyone else).

                        1) Female hitters don't generally face live pitching in BP. No one to throw it basically. Not like youth baseball where any of about 10 dads will throw until their arms fall off. The lack of live pitching in practice makes it extremely hard to learn timing for the MLB sequential load / unload swing.

                        2) Careers are short. Pro ball is really not a viable option. Girls are done playing by the time they are 22.

                        3) Pitching develops much faster in female FP than in youth baseball. The good pitchers at the 14A level throw just about as fast as the elite pitchers, especially wheen you consider they are throwing from 3' closer. less movement of course, but high velocity and very good control (maybe 1 walk a game?) NO ONE throws a straight fastball - just isn't done.

                        Players unable to hit w/ at least some competence at the 14A level may never get a chance to continue to hone their skills and move up to 16A and 18A / 18Gold.


                        Consequntly (or maybe for other reasons), many females are developing swings that are very simple - no-stride, early upper body load. In many cases, these are developmental steps, and as the hitters master rotation (using the torso / body, not the feet and legs), they add the stride and a more sequential upper body load / unload.

                        Englishbey favors such a simple approach, believing that if a hitter doesn't learn to rotate, not much else matters.

                        And Englishbey has had / is having a profound influence on the youth female FP community. I know you have spoken w/ Steve about getting together, David - I hope that happens. I think it would be valuable.



                        I'll shut up now, as I do recognize this is a board for BASEBALL, not FP. And I respect that demographic, and plan to honor it.

                        However, I also believe that there should be no difference whatsoever in the swings, and increasingly, see the gap narrowing.


                        Best wishes, David, and thanks for the kind words, John.

                        Scott
                        Last edited by ssarge; 02-12-2006, 01:44 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fuddrules
                          http://www.midwestbaseballacademy.com

                          On their definition sheet -

                          Path of Swing - Linear movement, forward and down, short to long, hands inside the ball, lower body clears path, hands need to see ball, elbow in slot, bat head up, bottom hand pull, top hand punch, barrell release, palm up/palm down, stay long in hitting zone.


                          Bwahahaha.
                          Fair enough, however....

                          What 13 CORRECT cues would you then list? If not these listed above, (and I already said, fair enough, so I am not disputing the misinformation here, would hate to again face the BF Inquisition!) then please, give us the proper list of 13 or so cues. If I sound sarcastic, well, I have read all about the MLB swing since I got on this board, but have never seen a list of cues like the ones listed above. Sure, perhaps they are WRONG, but I have never seen a concise, brief, succinct list of the RIGHT ones. And I would certainly like to see one. Sarcastic, yeah a bit I suppose!

                          Tom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tom:

                            Why do you want 13 cues?

                            Part of the problem, I think.


                            Although if you are going to use the list noted, I think you'll need at LEAST 14. Doesn't it seem that ROTATION - of SOME kind SOMEWHERE should be included?

                            A list of multiple cues is absolutely valueless in a 0.15 second window, which is how long the elite swing takes from launch to contact. A GOLF swing takes much longer and most golfers feel that 1 cue (or at most 2) is all they can focus on.


                            And such a list is reasonably valueless even for training (I'm not talking about THESE cues, which are absolutely detrimental to training; I mean ANY list of 13 cues - even good ones). What is meant by each cue? When they work against each other (elbow in slot AND stay long in the zone), which takes priority? If I am not getting optimal results, what do I correct w/out creating unintended consequences?



                            What is wrong w/ posture / connection / rotation (as defined at Setpro)? As practiced by Englishbey and many other instructors? Three simple cues. Maybe add "fish hook" at the end?


                            And really, I would go further and reduce it to one cue: Learn to rotate using the center of the body, not the legs and feet. ANY hitter that does this will be off to such a great start relative to his/her peers that the rest is simply refinement. And refinement also will be relatively easy to incorporate. Consequently, I believe EVERY hitter should learn to rotate properly before worrying about ANYTHING else. Worrying about how to work the back leg (strictly an example) if you don't know how to rotate is putting lipstick on a pig.

                            Regards,

                            Scott
                            Last edited by ssarge; 02-12-2006, 10:07 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ssarge
                              Tom:

                              Why do you want 13 cues?

                              Part of the problem, I think.


                              Although if you are going to use the list noted, I think you'll need at LEAST 14. Doesn't it seem that ROTATION - of SOME kind SOMEWHERE should be included?

                              A list of multiple cues is absolutely valueless in a 0.15 second window, which is how long the elite swing takes from launch to contact. A GOLF swing takes much longer and most golfers feel that 1 cue (or at most 2) is all they can focus on.


                              And such a list is reasonably valueless even for training (I'm not talking about THESE cues, which are absolutely detrimental to training; I mean ANY list of 13 cues - even good ones). What is meant by each cue? When they work against each other (elbow in slot AND stay long in the zone), which takes priority? If I am not getting optimal results, what do I correct w/out creating unintended consequences?



                              What is wrong w/ posture / connection / rotation (as defined at Setpro)? As practiced by Englishbey and many other instructors? Three simple cues. Maybe add "fish hook" at the end?


                              And really, I would go further and reduce it to one cue: Learn to rotate using the center of the body, not the legs and feet. ANY hitter that does this will be off to such a great start relative to his/her peers that the rest is simply refinement. And refinement also will be relatively easy to incorporate. Consequently, I believe EVERY hitter should learn to rotate properly before worrying about ANYTHING else. Worrying about how to work the back leg (strictly an example) if you don't know how to rotate is putting lipstick on a pig.

                              Regards,

                              Scott
                              OK. The reason I said 13 was only becasue that was how many were listed in the previous post, no other reason. If it is only one, well, so be it, one it is. Rotate using the core, or midsection if you will, fair enough. This is why I ask these silly questions. Thanks!

                              Comment

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