Yikes!---Here's what the

[Fuddrules]

It's people like Steve Englishbey, Scott, Mark H., etc... whose opinion I respect and read intently (what I believe came from this group), I'd also throw in posture. Simply because it's not all that difficult to understand. At least the basics of posture. It may not be the easiest to maintain throughout the swing, but it is something I think can be understood the easiest of the big 3. It's also very common to see poor posture so I know full well it's something that's not taught as well as it should.

Thanks Scott for continuing to help me along, whether you realize it or not, there are people who may not post much but value your input and fantastic use of words by painting a clear picture (or process).

P.S. - the "barrell" spelling was my error:atthepc

[handyman11]

I'll second that , Fuddrules ......a few years back I asked a series of questions on Rotational Hitting in Girls FP softball , on Nyman's site and Scott ,Mark H , and Steve were full of information that got me going in the right direction , and I used my own swing as a learning tool ...

When I found out Steve was from Houston ,and close to my age , I e-mailed him about a summer league I played in there many years ago ( Karl Young League ) , and he found time in his schedule to e-mail me back ...

I was 100% linear through college , and decided to get back into playing at age 45 .... since I was working with girls for years ( many of whose swings we probably converted the wrong way previously ! ) , and Rotational was a new buzzword , I wanted to learn everything I could ,,,,,, my only exposure to rotational was Epstein articles ...I've played thousands of games, but really was pretty naive of hitting technique ....

The best thing about the answers I received were the passion for the subject , and the fact that they seemed to treat everyone with respect .....

[Steve Englishbey]

Just to possibly clarify what Scott was referring to as regards my emphasis on rotation, I should add that rotation ---as I understand and teach it----involves rotation of body AND bat.

In other words its not just about the hips ,but about the entire body mass engaged in creating angular momentum ;its about creating a posture that facilitates and enhances creating a momentum path of bat and body;and its about the arms and legs FUNCTIONING in ways which essentially support the momentum process of the body mass ,ie., creating ,sustaining ,transferring momentum.

In many many ways,this ability on the part of elite athletes to very effectively load and unload the body mass,is what makes them distinct from everyone else.

Load -unload processes [at the elite level ] wherein momentum/momentum transfer is necessarily a product of very effective utilization of the torso---defined here [and elsewhere] as the upper thighs thru the scapular complex [trapezious,rhomboids,teres minor/major etc]---should be understood as something that really is mostly about function---as opposed to form.


Load-unload processes are more about function [what the body is doing---and most importantly what is the body mass doing]] as opposed to form [what the body looks like].

Form and function are related [of course] but they are also distinct.

It should also be more fully understood that function has little to do with "cues".

For ex., "scapula loading /unloading " is not a cue.

It is also only weakly related to form ---Swingbuster for ex. said recently on another cite that a particular hitter "obviously loaded his scapula ".

The very stark reality is that this hitter sufferd from very poor scapula functioning.

Swingbuster does not ,has not ,and in all likelihood will not ,understand the functional significance of "scapula loading-unloading " in the context that it really needs to be understood.

Meaning that it has to be understood as part of momentum creation/transfer process that only effective torso functioning can create .[Again torso defined as pelvic region thru scapular region.]

He has really never understood "scapula loading " and I say this because in my opinion he has never written anything that fully convinced me that he understands momentum processes ,especially as they apply to ballistic activities like throwing and hitting.

I bring this up now because I have grown somewhat tired of his misunderstanding of the term "scapula loading".

If you REALLY understood basic kinetic chain ,momentum processes [creating /transferring momentum],and basic aspects of stetch-shortening processes ,you would have little problem understanding how scapula loading-unloading functions in this context [and of course within the context of swinging a bat].



I allready tried to explain this to you in the eteamz-baseball "Abreu " thread.

Where among other things ,I tried to explain to you that the form of the hitters' action in terms of the movement variations of the hands thru the shoulders is exactly that ---movement variations.[In other words some hitters hold the bat high.some low,some out ,some in ,dip, twist ,wiggle, tilt,lockin, ad infinitum, the movement, motion of bat and arms can subtely [or otherwise] vary.

What does not vary however is the functioning of the scapula region in terms of linking the momentum of the body to the bathead [with the arms/elbows /wrist functioning in ways which do dot impede this linkage].

It is this functioning ----not how and where they hold or move the bat around prior to unloading the body mass [scapula complex included] that is vital to understand.

I am not trying to pick on Swingbuster here.

I realize the difficulty for many [most ] to fully understand the real significance of the term scapula loading -unloading.

However ,it is Swingbuster that continues to bring up the term in various ways ,ie "cant tell akid to scapula load", "bat-tipping " is something I could't discuss on Hitting -Mech., "Nyman refused to acknowledge bat -tipping ".

Bringing it up in ways that only reflect his lack of understanding of the functional importance of the scapular complex in terms of momentum transfer

I would urge you to simply drop the term from your vocabulary.

Quit trying to explain or use a term that you do not understand.


The broader ---and more important point ----is that everyone should at least try to understand that there is a difference between "cues" and "reality".

A distinction that was first made by "Mad Max "[ Paul Nyman] about 6 years ago.

For ex. "swing down " [cue] may result in a hitter not dragging the bat [caused --mechanically --by external rotation of the back elbow in an effort to overcome the inertia of the bat ,ie the attempt to "whip" the bat to initiate the swing.]

"Pull the knob to the ball ---without using the shoulder"---may result in creating sufficient isometric tension in the lead arm /shoulder such that you do not lag the bat behind too much.

"Dont dip the back shoulder" could result in less tilting backwards [lateral flexion of the spine[with the bathead dropping too far under the swingplane.

We could list dozens of "cues" that one could argue MAY result in some improvement of a hitter [ "reality" being defined as some kind of functional improvement ,ie, better rotation, quicker swing , better batspeed,more effective momentum shift, etc.]


But ,it should be well understood that "cues" like swing down are not the same as "reality" ,ie, elite hitters do not swing down[they effectively create a "gyroscopic tilt" with the bat following closely behind this ] , they do not pull the knob to the ball , the "reality " is that they hold on to the bat in a tensioned filled process for most of the swing [until such time that forces built up unhinge the bat into contact ie,"rotational extension" [ a term along with the "hook " or "dog at the end of a leash " that Paul Nyman used to describe a high-level unhinging of the bathead into contact.]


But......though ANY cue CAN be useful ,it is my experience and my observations that the further from "reality" the cue is , the more potentially detrimental they will be for most hitters.

My experience ----and what I have spent the last 5 years working towards -----is to understand "reality" such that I can devise drills that are effective at creating "reality".And a big part of this is built around getting hitters to better understand what it is they are ACTUALLY trying to do.

My experience suggest that the better I understand "function" ---and how to effect better functioning----the more effective I am at getting hitters to do what they need to do.And the better the hitter him or herself understands what they are trying to do the more effective they become .

And this can involve both cognitive and /or kinesthetic understanding .With the ultimate goal of being the development of a heightened "tacit awareness".

And I will say that the more that I have come to understand function, the LESS I use cues.The cues come AFTER you have some greater physical understanding of whatever it is that I think you need to do.

For ex. I could say here to get your son to "hit with his back shoulder".
Unless he REALLY knew what this means physically ,this could be interpreted poorly or wrongly.

I do not use cues as much as I use a variety of movement patterns and movement exercises to effect change of movement ,sequencing,muscle action , and postural efficiency.

Which then gets back to why it is difficult to explain alot of things thru the internet.

Cues like "forward by turning " or "carry the mass forward " are only as good as your ability to create the movement patterns and muscle action necessary to actually do what you need to do.

And most hitters that I know simply do not have the "functional fitness" qualities that have to be in play before you can really create good movement.

" Functional Fitness" is a term used by Mel Siff [one of the truly brilliant exercise scientists in the world] A term that he refers to to ask, "Are you physically prepared ---and have you been engaged in practicing the basic movements of your sport?"

In the case of almost all baseball and softball players I know the answer is no.

One of THE fundemental movements in baseball /softball is rotation.

Whether throwing or hitting ,rotational power and efficiency ,is an essential feature of elite functioning hitters and throwers.

Most young hitters/throwers have not in any manner been engaged in practicing /exercising in ways which enhance their rotational abilities.

Most suffer ,functionally speaking, "a rotational deficit ".

Cues like "swinging down " and "pulling the knob to the ball " ,"pivot hard off the back foot when you swing, etc,etc., ad infinitum,have not helped address this basic "rotational deficit " problem .

Many have been taught ,or simply have been swinging a bat for years that amounts to moving the body primarily with the arms and legs.

The functional reality is that very few have been engaged in ways to really effectively practice how to use the body mass to create effective rotational momentum.

And it is this ability to use the body mass to create effective momentum is one of the key differences between really good athletes [not just baseball softball players] and everyone else.


Without really understanding how to use the body mass to create momentum you will have no choice but to be an arm swinger [coupled with using the legs to turn the body].


Or as I have said before ,"arm action is king"--------for mediocre hitters.
For guys who never learned how to function beyond the typical ways most people learn how to swing a bat.


steve

[ssarge]

Wow, gonna print out this post, Steve. Much to contemplate.

Sorry for the abbreviated (and incomplete) presentation of your beliefs on rotation. Glad you saw the thread and clarified. I'll try to present more accurately in the future.

Best,

Scott

[Steve Englishbey]

Scott I know you know fundementally what I teach and how I go about trying to explain and teach swinging a bat.

But I do think that some may get a little confused about what "teaching rotation " means.

Or maybe I should say that most people seem to not understand that what I teach is based on the broader understanding that rotation is about rotation of the bat and body ie, systemic rotation, bat and body as the components of a unitary system.

This means that loading and unloading the body and creating an efficient swingpath and efficiently unloading the bat are the main components of systemic rotation.

This necessarily involves the bat and body engaged in creating a rotational pattern , which is largely driven by creating angular momentum and postural efficiency [ the latter of which serves to create "critical angles " and helps greatly in creating efficient direction of the momentum of bat and body ].

All of which is largely a function of the effective utilization of the body mass.


All of which is involved in understanding what I mean by rotation [and what I teach.]

Understanding how the body ---with bat attached---is used to create an efficient rotational pattern necessarily involves interweaving aspects of "posture ,connection,rotation " into a coherent whole.

In my mind that coherent whole is the body engaged in creating angular momentum of bat and body.


Your comments simply prompted me to make a few comments regarding how I view rotation and how I teach it.


steve

[swingbuster]

Swingbuster does not ,has not ,and in all likelihood will not ,understand the functional significance of "scapula loading-unloading " in the context that it really needs to be understood.

Meaning that it has to be understood as part of momentum creation/transfer process that only effective torso functioning can create .[Again torso defined as pelvic region thru scapular region.]

He has really never understood "scapula loading " and I say this because in my opinion he has never written anything that fully convinced me that he understands momentum processes ,especially as they apply to ballistic activities like throwing and hitting.

Steve,

I see the process like this. The hips coil first to get spatially behind the shoulder unit. Scap loading is the process where the shoulder unit can turn around the spinal axis without the spine itself moving. Even if there is some slight counter rotation of the upper body; the scap loading ( if you prefer) can extend the turn

I see the shoulders as the flywheel and I like you comments about how the arms, hands, and bat must stay in the momentum plane of the shoulder turn to avoid loss of energy. I see that the hips in great players coil first, the shoulders turn around the spinal axis, and the hips/ pelvis torque the torso and this turns the fly wheel. The lead shoulder is the central articulation point( for the bat) of the upper body and the lead hip of the lower body, and the unhinging of the wrist angle through the centripetal force is the end point of this kinetic chain.

Many find it annoying when we go out to the edge of this flywheel and discuss the bat, arms, elbow, and movement patterns. It doesn't mean we deminish the importance of the core moves. I know it is risky to reach for more and that more can yield less in this area. Still, I enjoy it.

I see a need for spine angle, body tilt and weight shift to dynamically link this swing to overcome inertia and apply the energy into the path of the pitch. I think it takes a great athlete to do all of this in limited time making the proper adjustments to a ball that will be in the broad area called the strike zone

You deal with many one sport FP players in CA where the weather is good and they are highly motivated. You deal with players that have the time and desire to condition for rotary power and build their swing over an extended time. This is great.

Like most of baseball America, I deal with three sports athletes that must play the game without the benefits of all the above. I also deal with LL players that view baseball as a game and want some general knowledge in a short time frame. Maybe distainful to many but reality for most; hence the shortcuts and cues; crock pot vs microwave approaches.....not ideal for sure!

Half of our HS baseball team had their last basketball game Sat night and will play a regular season baseball in 10 days and the wind chill here is 38 today.

I appreciate your work and commitment but I too have a commitment to what I do as well. There are more people that want or have time for a little less than more unfortunately. They do not nececcarily constitute your customer base but it is a large group that defines success through a different set of goals among them is participation in all of the sports.

I have no doubt you are good at what you do. All those people cannot be wrong and it was never my goal or intent to say they were wrong. I am pulling for you and your growing popularity. I know first hand that this comes from hard work and delivering a quality experience at your camps.

As for the shoulder and scap understanding...In my other life I do surgery on this joint. I open the shoulder, cut the infraspinatus tendon, cut teres minor tendon, reflect the teres major, cut the acromion with it's deltoid insertion, open the joint capsule, externally rotate the limb, repair the humeral head and put it all back together.


I do get it............Its the kids that have to get it and I enjoy working with them at whatever level they seek. I find great pleasure in that no matter what sport.

[Ohfor]

...As for the shoulder and scap understanding...In my other life I do surgery on this joint. I open the shoulder, cut the infraspinatus tendon, cut teres minor tendon, reflect the teres major, cut the acromion with it's deltoid insertion, open the joint capsule, externally rotate the limb, repair the humeral head and put it all back together.

I don't like those words. Would you use terms I understand........ That's my impression of Ursa and doggy.

Actually, a well written paragraph. And I find it interesting that you can write so clearly about that stuff (stuff that you know so well) but so illiegibly about hitting.

Here's one of my favorite softball swings.





I think this is a good example of rotation of the body AND bat that Steve talked about. Notice the early blur of the bat. To me that indicates early batspeed. The rotation of the body is transfered to the bat very early in the swing. Rotation of body AND bat.

[wogdoggy]

I don't like those words. Would you use terms I understand........ That's my impression of Ursa and doggy.


lol.

[Ursa Major]

Quote: Originally Posted by swingbuster
...As for the shoulder and scap understanding...In my other life I do surgery on this joint. I open the shoulder, cut the infraspinatus tendon, cut teres minor tendon, reflect the teres major, cut the acromion with it's deltoid insertion, open the joint capsule, externally rotate the limb, repair the humeral head and put it all back together.

I don't like those words. Would you use terms I understand........ That's my impression of Ursa and doggy.

Actually, a well written paragraph. And I find it interesting that you can write so clearly about that stuff (stuff that you know so well) but so illiegibly about hitting.

I agree with on that, Ohfor. And it doesn't have to be a term I do understand, so long as it's one I can look up -- i.e., that's capable of being understood.

[LClifton]

Here's one of my favorite softball swings.

I think this is a good example of rotation of the body AND bat that Steve talked about. Notice the early blur of the bat. To me that indicates early batspeed. The rotation of the body is transfered to the bat very early in the swing. Rotation of body AND bat.

For what it's worth, this is indeed my favorite. My daughter has been working on these mechanics for about 4 months now..(with some very good results) (Ohfor you have seen her) (and have helped us) This is the clip that she looks at often.

The girl in the clip is Caitlyn Benyi.
Caitlyn will be a senior at UCLA this year and she is an Arizona girl. So, I was lucky to get to see her play here in high school.

Great clip of a really good hitter.

Is posture, rotation, connection, done pretty simply here? I think yes.
Notice how her hands appear to stay attached to her back shoulder for a longer period of time than most kids you see. Most younger hitters, unfortuanately get the "take the hands to the ball" "cue"...

p.s. Ohfer, you think she's pushing off the back side? kidding.....

[ssarge]

My impression is that when a swing is this connected and seemingly effortless, a very great effort has been underway for a while.


Really, really nice.


I can also validate that Loren's daughter has a very strong swing. One of the nicer I have seen on a 15 YO hitter.


I make the point because it is important to note his points of emphasis. Posture-Connection-Rotation.


Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

In other words its not just about the hips ,but about the entire body mass engaged in creating angular momentum ;its about creating a posture that facilitates and enhances creating a momentum path of bat and body;and its about the arms and legs FUNCTIONING in ways which essentially support the momentum process of the body mass ,ie., creating ,sustaining ,transferring momentum.

In many many ways,this ability on the part of elite athletes to very effectively load and unload the body mass,is what makes them distinct from everyone else.

Load -unload processes [at the elite level ] wherein momentum/momentum transfer is necessarily a product of very effective utilization of the torso---defined here [and elsewhere] as the upper thighs thru the scapular complex [trapezious,rhomboids,teres minor/major etc]---should be understood as something that really is mostly about function---as opposed to form.

Scott I know you know fundementally what I teach and how I go about trying to explain and teach swinging a bat.

But I do think that some may get a little confused about what "teaching rotation " means.

I wouldn't say I am "confused" exactly. Having had the good fortune to spend a week with Steve at my home, having had the opportunity to view all his instruictional materials dating back to some stuff that was never generally released (and having even filmed - badly - a little of his stuff), and having spoken with him on the phone an average of once a week for close to a year, it is starting to sink in to even my thick skull.

Probably, my understanding is at a reasonable level for an amateur hitting instructor (basically a dad). That said, in an attempt to summarize and abbreviate, I didn't explain Steve's foundational beliefs very well.


I've probably reached a point where I understand the material well enough to teach it a little. I think I now know a good swing when I see it. I think I have a reasonably well defined sense of priority in approaching the teaching of hitting.


What I don't understand - and why people need exposure to someone like Steve, or more probably need exposure to Steve SPECIFICALLY - is nuance.

• How to get a kid past a stumbling block?
  
  
• How to fix problems without unintended consequences?
  
  
• The ability to back up the simplicity of what is taught with extremely detailed understanding of how the body actually moves and creates force.
  
  
• Credibility. Which comes in MANY ways, but something someone like Steve has is the credibility born of the fact that he KNOWS what he is doing will work. Most of the rest of us just kind of believe it. Steve KNOWS.
  
  
• Playing experience at a high level, but if he will permit me, FAILED playng experience at the HIGHEST level. Steve was the 8th player taken in the 1972 draft, but his career topped out in AAA. And I actually think this "failure" has made him a better instructor. Because understanding WHY he didn't reach the top level has been a driving force.
  
  
• Eight years of being involved in hitting 24 hours a day, and if you think that is hyperbole, you haven't yet met Steve.
  
  
• The ability to communicate hugely simple principles in incredibly simple language in a manner young people find endearing and useful. The language of his posts is NOTHING like his communication to students. If Steve were any more pleasant, folksy, direct, soft-spoken, non-threatening, and charismatic when dealing w/ kids, you'd have to shoot him.

Come to think of it, all of that is more than nuance.


Best regards,

Scott

[LClifton]

Helpful.....

My impression is that when a swing is this connected and seemingly effortless, a very great effort has been underway for a while.

Absolutely....much effort and then an application, gives this "appearance" of effortless. When an athlete gets to this point it is nice to watch, or emulate.

I can also validate that Loren's daughter has a very strong swing. One of the nicer I have seen on a 15 YO hitter.

I make the point because it is important to note his points of emphasis. Posture-Connection-Rotation.

Best regards,

Scott

Thank you.

In addition, Scott, Fungo, Steve E, and Tim, have all taken time for my "idiotic" questions and with each question came yet another, and all have VERY UNSELFISHLY give their time, lots of it.

IMO -----a testament to their character.

All I can say is Thanks, which does not begin to suffice as to how grateful I am. We have a ways to go yet, so guys, charge your phone batteries. lol.

Sincerely,
LClifton

[swingbuster]

The rotation of the body is transfered to the bat very early in the swing. Rotation of body AND bat.

Full transfer mechanics. Lead foot lands almost flat accepting weight immediately. It did not go out soft yet she converted it to an almost perfect turn. Peavy and Yeager could have taught that swing. That is a MLB coil/ shift to start that rotation guys.

First base view............

Coil / tuck hip, meter weight, block, rotate. Great swing but not a beginner...P-C-R swing. She properly uses the weight shift. Again great swing.

[ssarge]

That is a MLB coil/ shift to start that rotation guys.

It is a great swing. A little bat drag - like all Enquist-trained hitters - but she overcomes it well.

When you use a little bat drag, and can get back square before turning the corner, you have added some bat speed. You've also sacrificed a little quickness, but it is a tradeoff some MLB hitters make. And ALL "pure" RVP / Slaught hitters attempt to make. Regrettably, most don't succeed, and I think it is a huge problem for many youth hitters, but Benyi absolutely does make it work.

(As I have indicated in other posts, I believe youth hitters are FAR better served to learn to swing w/ no bat drag, insuring maximum quickness. And then if they need a little extra pop, possibly to re-evaluate. My guess is that is what MLB hitters who have a smidgeon of bat drag have done (pobably through trial-and-error more than a conscious consideration). I think it is EXTREMELY difficult to build a swing w/ bat drag, then try to make it quicker. And I think it is quite difficult for most female hitters to overcome bat drag - whether physiological or physcological, I don't know. But my belief is that female hitters are better off without it. You don't need the enhanced bat speed it MAY provide to hit the ball 200 feet, bttom line. And it WILL make the swing less quick. That said, this is a great swing by Benyi.)

Peavy and Yeager could have taught that swing.

Donny, I believe that you need to reconsider this.

I'm not yet familiar w/ Yeager. Will do some homework.

But Peavy?


Below is a quote from Peavy's web site. Where does Benyi do this?

Where does any elite hitter do this?


Regards,

Scott