Yikes!---Here's what the

[Erik]

Steve E or Nyman or ssarge or jsiggy or suzy or teacherman or markH or jalbert or lclifton or fungo22 and now hiddengem.....are for sures. (sorry if I left others out)

Peavy and Yeager......maybe. I'm doubtful.

Epstein, Swingbuster, tom.guerry, laseke......definately not.

I see you're trying to provoke me. I guess you feel that because of my device (you don't agree with) which is ok evaluates my understanding of the swing? Is this your only assumption to my knowledge of this subject. Wow! Please Ohfor discribe for me what my beliefs and opinons on this subject are. I really haven't touched on this. I guess you're baseing my understanding on this subject on one swing path. I have learned a lot since I developed the first version pertaining to the swing. I thank all that has made this possible. I have applied a lot of the theories that I'm in agreement with, which I can say has been from everyone that has contributed on the boards. I try to keep my mouth shut while focusing on learning and trying to avoid conflict with you. Knowledge is power and this is what has made me become a better instructor.
please let's get back to teaching this subject.


EL,

[tom.guerry]

GEM-

The stills you posted all maintain the box pretty well which is appropriate for mid to high balls.

You could also anticipate that the ball will be low and bend way over and be able to keep the box for that as well, but if you are instead loking in and ready to ajust up/down on the fly, you have to keep the back shoulder up until you know the hi/lo location,then you can keep sitting and drop the back shoulder to get the low ball swing which will be a more extended/"L" out of back elbow with contact when the bathead has arced further into the swing plane,almost lined up with lead forearm/almost wrist rolling at contact.

The timing to contact then is not so different betwen high and low even though the swing shapes are very different.

Without anticipation,you can not adjust up/down on fly by maintain box/bend at waist and hit with power. It can be a 2 strike mechanical adjustment situation where you look out and adjust in. This is not how either Williams or Epstein would recommend adjusting mechanics for 2 strike (and they also differ here).

[jbooth]

GEM-

The stills you posted all maintain the box pretty well which is appropriate for mid to high balls.

You could also anticipate that the ball will be low and bend way over and be able to keep the box for that as well, but if you are instead loking in and ready to ajust up/down on the fly, you have to keep the back shoulder up until you know the hi/lo location,then you can keep sitting and drop the back shoulder to get the low ball swing which will be a more extended/"L" out of back elbow with contact when the bathead has arced further into the swing plane,almost lined up with lead forearm/almost wrist rolling at contact.

The timing to contact then is not so different betwen high and low even though the swing shapes are very different.

Without anticipation,you can not adjust up/down on fly by maintain box/bend at waist and hit with power. It can be a 2 strike mechanical adjustment situation where you look out and adjust in. This is not how either Williams or Epstein would recommend adjusting mechanics for 2 strike (and they also differ here).

You can do it the way you say, but I've seen Bonds and Ramirez and others do it by tilting and keeping the box. Which is correct? Whatever works. The goal is to hit the ball.

However you make an adjustment, if it takes you out of your intended "perfect" swing, you are going to lose something in power. The tilt and swing method does less to harm your power. The way you described MAY sometimes cause you to sit back too much, and that takes rotational momentum away from the ball.

[hiddengem]

GEM-

The stills you posted all maintain the box pretty well which is appropriate for mid to high balls.

you have to keep the back shoulder up until you know the hi/lo location,then you can keep sitting and drop the back shoulder to get the low ball swing which will be a more extended/"L" out of back elbow with contact when the bathead has arced further into the swing plane,almost lined up with lead forearm/almost wrist rolling at contact.

When you say "extended "L". You are referring to the back forearm being more parralell to the ground and the upper arm being verticle. As opposed to a ball higher in the zone where you should try to keep your rear forearm more verticle?

I would aggree that your rear forearm is going to flatter on a pitch down or a ball away from you.

[Ohfor]

Without anticipation,you can not adjust up/down on fly by maintain box/bend at waist and hit with power...

Simply not true. Falsehood. Lie.

Of course, he would know that if he got the latest information from Steve E.

But, then, if he got that information he just might have to say uncle.

Then who would read his long posts?

[jsiggy]

Originally Posted by tom.guerry
Without anticipation,you can not adjust up/down on fly by maintain box/bend at waist and hit with power...

Simply not true. Falsehood. Lie.

Ohfor (and Jim) is dead on here from my experience... seen it happen quite well. In fact, I think the opposite is true. It may be easier or more natural to do what Tom says - but from what I've seen you lose power because of it.

[LClifton]

GEM-

The stills you posted all maintain the box pretty well which is appropriate for mid to high balls.

Yes, I agree with you. No question, why? Good hitters take advantage of this. Case in point, Pujols facing the closer from Houston, pitcher made him look silly on the first two strikes, lunging, reaching, 2 swings, 2 misses, no foul balls. What ended up happening? Lidge throws a mistake, Albert hits it out.

You could also anticipate that the ball will be low and bend way over and be able to keep the box for that as well, but if you are instead loking in and ready to ajust up/down on the fly, you have to keep the back shoulder up until you know the hi/lo location,then you can keep sitting and drop the back shoulder to get the low ball swing which will be a more extended/"L" out of back elbow with contact when the bathead has arced further into the swing plane,almost lined up with lead forearm/almost wrist rolling at contact.

The low and away swing usually resembles this (batters' thoughts) OOOOPS there it is, I have 2 strikes, I think I'll just flick at this one, ooops missed.
I think your description of low and away is possibly what should happen. Often times the away pitch that is driven is the one that stayed up.

The timing to contact then is not so different betwen high and low even though the swing shapes are very different.

O.K?

Without anticipation,you can not adjust up/down on fly by maintain box/bend at waist and hit with power. It can be a 2 strike mechanical adjustment situation where you look out and adjust in. This is not how either Williams or Epstein would recommend adjusting mechanics for 2 strike (and they also differ here).

* Yes it Becomes a guessing game.
* With 2 strikes the batting average is pretty dang low,
* even with the best of intentions to adjust and
* Even with the best hitters
* Thought, maybe I can foul a couple off and wait for a mistake.

To critique a swing is one thing, (and I've heard it over and over) many constantly state that, "I would like to see her on a low pitch"....is something that gets tiring.

Here's what I am saying, good hitters hit the mistakes very well. They do not generally hit the low and away pitch with 2 strikes well.

I went to the Kajikawa Classic here in Arizona and watched some very good hitters. I will elude to University of Arizona to make my point.

Caitlyn Lowe --lead off hitter--high on base percentage--very good hitter. Scored the first run of their first 5 games.
Cal State Fullerton game, 3 for 4 (1 bunt)
Both pitches she hit were up, one she drove over SS and the 2nd was hit over 2nd base.

Struck out twice against Texas.
Once reaching for low, away, one time looking at low and away.

Jenae Leles ----homerun against Cal State Fullerton--- 1 walk, 1 homerun.
Pitch she hit out was the same location in the Benyi clip.

Struck out twice in previous game.
One rise ball, swinging.
One low and away, swinging

Did they get a good pitch to hit?
***Yes, in some at bats, No, (obviously) in other at bats.
**Adjust to pitch location? Yes
*Adjust, or be less selective with 2 strikes? Yes, definitely
*Learn how to hit the low and away pitch --out,,,One can alway hope.

People watching Caitlyn Lowe made the comment, "She can really hit." And she can....she gets a good pitch and has a swing conducive to hitting the ball hard. Most of the pitches she hit well were a mistake. Pitchers make them, good hitters make them pay for them.

I witnessed these young ladies strike out on low pitches and watched them hit mistakes very well.

My opinion only, is that when they DO get that GOOD pitch to hit they have a swing that is conducive to doing just that. I am not saying they don't work on the low pitch. Most of the hits I witnessed on the low pitch (right handed batters) were punch shots, bloops, or ground balls hit between the
1st and 2nd basemen. We too work on the low pitch so that we can
1. try and stay as connected as possible,
2. adjust posture as much as possible,
3. and let that ball get as deep as possible, in order to be able to
4. ocassionally "drive one" the other way for a pitch that is "not so low and away"....

Respectfully,
LClifton

[hiddengem]

Without a doubt in my mind you hit lower outside pitch better and easier if you tilt your spine and get "down there" with that low outside pitch. If I try and adjust to that pitch with my hands and arms I am going to be highly inconsistent at best.

When you squat down a bit and tilt over to start with, that outside pitch suddenly doesn't look so far away and you can handle it MUCH better.

I'm speaking from experience trying it both ways at high levels, where you see 90-95mph out there. Its very tough(for me) to start in a more upright position and be able to get in a good position to hit the ball down and away, where many FB's are thrown. I end up having terrible rotation and bascially just trying to flick my hands and arms at it. But if I'm already down there(tilted) a bit, the ball feels more hitable to me and just more of a turn and hit it.

[LClifton]

Without a doubt in my mind you hit lower outside pitch better and easier if you tilt your spine and get "down there" with that low outside pitch. If I try and adjust to that pitch with my hands and arms I am going to be highly inconsistent at best..

Now, why couldn't I have just said it this way?h

Much simpler.

Great job Gem.

-LClifton

[ssarge]

This girl has 0 bat drag.

Richard,

Am I using the term incorrectly?

There certainly are 2-3 frames where her hands are behind the rear elbow, and that seems to me to fit the classic definition of bat drag. I may be getting confused here.

Thanks for the help,

Scott

[Steve Englishbey]

Tom , as regards this last post ---the post regarding "adjustments"-- [and actually many others ] the basic question to you needs to be :

How the hell do you know this such you can arrogantly assert yourself ?

How the hell do you know what is in the mind and body of a hitter trying to hit a 90 to 95 mph fastball ?

When have YOU EVER attempted to hit even balls thrown from a machine at those speeds ?

Much less from a pitcher.

Much less in an actual game.

With regards to almost everything you have posted in the last yr. or so that has to do with "doing it " and "teaching it " , I would say that you have increasingly turned your philosophical search for the unified theory into arrogant assertions WITHOUT FOUNDATION.

You have no foundation whatsoever --aside from simply repeating some of what Mike Epstein says about adjustments----as regards "doing it " .


You have no foundation whatsoever to ASSERT much of anything as regards "teaching it".


A perfect [and typical ] example of this was when you compared a very simple drill that Branden Flippen was doing [a very basic drill to simply learn how to try to create a "box" and turn ]----you took about 3 pages to compare it frame by frame to Sammy Sosa SWINGING IN A GAME.

You took a big league hitter---a hall of famer to be ----and compared his every single move in a game swing and compared it to A THIRTEEN YR. OLD HITTING OFF A TEE ATTEMPTING TO MERELY LEARN HOW TO TURN BETTER .


You effectively said ---ASSERTED----"well this is not an effective way to practice...........see Sammy he's doing this ,this this ,this,ect ., ad nauseum.

And Branden is doing this ,this ,this ,and this ......and all this is different than Sammy Sosa.

This was a perfect ex. of someone utterly devoid of understanding developmental issues as they apply to young people and swinging a bat.

And it's not just me that saw this for what it really was .

At least a half dozen people that I talked to said to the effect :

" What the hell is wrong with Tom Guerry's mind.Does he not realize that he is comparing a boy doing a drill to a big league guy's game swing?".


I guess the reply could be along the lines of :

"Well ,this is the kind of thing that happens to people that spend years just sitting at a computer looking at slow-mo video of nothing but big league hitters. "


And there is ----as I have said to you before----nothing wrong this .

But when you enter the realm of "doing it " and "teaching it" ---and when you venture into these realms with nothing but arrogant assertions without foundation ,you are much more likely to get my attention [in the form of criticism].

From my perspective as a praticioner ,it is one thing if a guy like JIm Booth asserts himself about some of this stuff.

I may not always agree with his tone or the substance [ although it appears that we do agree on much ].

But I know he has been doing his homework if you will.

Meaning I know he is engaged in the process of teaching and finding better ways to explain and teach young hitters.

He has a foundation upon which to assert himself [working with players /finding good useful info upon which he can use to better teach].

I see absolutely no evidence from you Tom that you have any real foundation upon which to teach.

What I have seen ---especially in the last yr. is ---increasingly is a foundation essentially built upon a foundation of arrogance and ignorance [ignorance of teaching ,ignorance in terms of sports biomechanics] .

This is not a good combination.

I would suggest that you should be a little more humble in your assertions.

A few more qualifying statements such as " I think this "........."it might be this " ............"it could work like this ".

And it would be as good idea for you to go to a cage ,put it up around 90 and tape it and show us how you how you ---among other things--make the adjustment on a low ball by manipulating your back leg .

I'd really love to see this .

The fact is that you should start practicing now ,because when I get to nothern Ca. in a few weeks ,I'm going to ask you to explain this ---and a few other things as well .

Or you can get a 12 yr old of your choice to work with .

And you can bring them to the field .

I am most interested in how you can create Sammy Sosa's swing in a 12 yr. old .

steve

[tom.guerry]

More extended low ball swing by Barry:

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg

[hiddengem]

More extended low ball swing by Barry:

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg

Thanks for showing that Tom. It proves right there on film that Barry is very much tilted over the plate to adjust for that low pitch, and is HARDLY extended at contact if at all. My guess is this pitch was down but middle, but still shows how he adjusted to it. At launch starts low and tilted and absolutely rakes low pitches because of it.

[Ohfor]

Richard,

Am I using the term incorrectly?

There certainly are 2-3 frames where her hands are behind the rear elbow, and that seems to me to fit the classic definition of bat drag. I may be getting confused here.

Thanks for the help,

Scott

IF the fulcrum of the swing is the rear elbow, and the rear elbow leads the hands, it's bat drag. You have a rather long swing. The bat plus the rear forearm have to be swung. That's a long lever.

The fulcrum of this girls swing is her hands, at her armpit. Therefore, the elbow leading ever so slightly is a nonissue. It has little effect on the barrel. In fact, I believe this technique, often overlooked, pointed out to me by Steve E, is very instrumental in setting up the hook. Straighten me out Steve if I misunderstood.

Watch the blur of the bat......Do you really think that bat is dragging? It blurs while behind her head. That bat is moving.....rather quickly. Almost the entire swing is from the hook. The earliest hook I've seen. Not to discount the good posture, connection and rotation. But, this bat hooks very early.



If this girl drags, then so does Pujols. And if Pujols drags then we ought to teach it.



Now, here is the riddle to solve. For the elbow to be the fulcrum of the swing, (which we don't want) where does the top hand have to be? And I'm not talking in terms of "in front" or "behind". Where should it be? And where does this put the forearm?

The answer is exhibited in both these swings, IMHO, but easier to see in Pujols' swing.

[ssarge]

Richard:

Unfortunately, I can't find a way to slow down the Pujols clip - it wants to save as a bit-map.

But I am extremely interested. REALLY learning something here.

My impression of Benyi is that the hands have flattened - whatever has caused this, and the back hand is almost behind the front hand. Is that your reference?

More, please!

Best regards,

Scott