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  • Mankin

    I know this guys name has been discussed around here quite often, but I personally never knew anything about him. I recently was able to get a copy of his DVD that he did with a former player from the Astros.

    Since a bit of this rotational type teaching is new to me, I'm wondering if Steve E, Siggy, Jbooth, ohfor, ect. that have studied rotational mechanics, can tell me what parts of Mankin's teachings they disagree with?

  • #2
    I'm not qualified at the level of the guys you reference, but I'd be surprised if the first thing they mention isn't THT (Top-Hand-Torque). if such a phenomenon exists at all, it is an EFFECT (of proper rotational forces), not a CAUSE.

    I also think that BHT (Bottom Hand Torque) is a concept ONLY in that the bottom hand is the connection point between the front shoulder and the bat.


    I think defining CHP (Circular Hand Path) was a breakthrough, and much to Jack's credit.


    I think that John Elliot referencing his bat speed (on The Final Arc 2 DVD) at upper 70s is unfortunate. Several on my daughters 18Gold team are over 80 w/ decent mechanics (don't resort to bat drag and so maintain reasonable swing quickness as well as bat speed). My own daughter is 15, and tops out at around 81. This is using a Setpro measurement device, which does consistently read the END of the bat. meaning it gets a maximally fast reading. The Batspeed measurement device could be generating a reading anywhere along the bat, and if it reads the middle, the bat will obviously be traveling less fast than the tip.

    Kind of a moot point, since the Batspeed measurement device almost never gets a read at all.


    Jack is a wonderful and genuine guy. Nobody better out there on the human level. As I mentioned, he was a pioneer on CHP. I think the unfortunate reality is that he has backed himself into a bit of a corner w/ the THT stuff.

    Obviously, others passionately disagree.


    Passion is good.


    Video is better.


    Best regards,

    Scott
    Last edited by ssarge; 02-13-2006, 09:55 AM.

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    • #3
      There is definately a extra oomph you can put on that bat at contact.Is that torque?To get the proper "HOOK" you have to apply some kind of bottom hand pull?You can almost see the "EXTRA" speed that can devolop by using this method.

      he uses a cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher.It "DO"{SEE DEFENITION} generate a heck of alot of batspeed,but can also cause disconnnection problems if not done correctly I also like the cue of front elbow up.It keeps the barrel in a good spot and helps stop bat rollover.Nymans guys finally conceded and gave jack a lilttle credit for his circular hand path...
      Last edited by wogdoggy; 02-13-2006, 04:49 AM.

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      • #4
        What about the point in the show where he is talking about having a straight front arm, and a "arm bar" being ok, as long as you don't cast?

        Comment


        • #5
          HG,

          I think about the straight arm thing at times. I'm not a physics guy but the longer the radius if it stayed connected to the core the faster the bat tip maybe.....not that i would recommend that

          I use a bent lead elbow because the short radius is quicker and takes less strength. Will Clark, Clemente, G Brett use a long lead arm.

          I think it( arm length) has to do with when it goes long and if it is inside the target line and if it gets long after the negative circular loading is complete, and if it follows the momentum plane of the shoulder turn .

          Ditto Scott..Mankin great guy. Ditto again I don't think THT is an active conscience move. I think it happens when the elbow slot. He was seen as a competitor and his work was slammed.

          He quietly runs a good shop.........

          I like several key points he makes...

          the shoulder turn is key and all else is slaving to that end

          he has never seem a kid that loaded properly that had a bad swing...me either

          He best describes the dynamic, uninterupted sequence, of many MLB players.

          Elliotts 400 foot shots would suggest his bat speed if fairly high. Ball flight is a good indicator too.

          Comment


          • #6
            the one question i have here is jack i believe says the top part of the body or shoulder moves first,if you look at ted williams book especially the overview shot he suggests the hips move first which supports the overhead view in the book .

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hiddengem
              I know this guys name has been discussed around here quite often, but I personally never knew anything about him. I recently was able to get a copy of his DVD that he did with a former player from the Astros.

              Since a bit of this rotational type teaching is new to me, I'm wondering if Steve E, Siggy, Jbooth, ohfor, ect. that have studied rotational mechanics, can tell me what parts of Mankin's teachings they disagree with?
              He is incorrect about the hand use in relation to torque on the handle, both at the start of the swing and just prior to contact. He is definitely correct about making the hands move in a circular path around the body.

              Comment


              • #8
                Interesting Discussion with Mankin and Guerry at;
                http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/6862.html

                Just searching the Net in an attempt to keep up.
                "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                • #9
                  By coincidence I watched "The Final Arc" yesterday for the first time in about a year. In that time I've become somewhat educated in rotational swinging and noted the same things you guys are discussing. Some of you may recall one of the threads in which I stuck my foot in my mouth about use of the hands. Although I was barraged with lots of good info on that thread, there is still a little doubt in my mind that the hands are supposed to only act as a hinge. Watching Mankin's dvd only raised that doubt again. If a little torque can be added to the swing by pushing out a little at the beginning of the swing, why not do it?

                  The other issue, what do you do with the front arm, is also a little ambiguous. After watching the many clips posted on this site (many from sewellbaseball.com) most of those hitters maintain a kind of elongated box, much like what Mankin advocates. I think only that Rose clip shows a true box as is frequently described in other threads on this site.

                  Just some thoughts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bbjunkie
                    If a little torque can be added to the swing by pushing out a little at the beginning of the swing, why not do it?
                    Several reasons why not, but if your knowledge of physics is not great, it is difficult to explain.

                    Two different people that I know of, with PhD's in physics, have both concurred that the hands basically are nothing but a hinge and nothing but a transfer point for the momentum to go from body to bathead. I have heard second hand of other studies. If you are having to feel a need to push, pull, twist torque, or do any combination of the above, with your hands, then you are not using your body and arms in the most effecient manner, to move the bat.

                    Dr Robert Adair and Dr Allan Nathan are the two physicists, Adair wrote the book "The physics of baseball" and Nathan has info on a website.

                    see here http://carini.physics.indiana.edu/E105/swing.html

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                    • #11
                      j booth didnt you say you can add some bottom hand torque by squeezing the bottom three fingers or putting a lil pull on them?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wogdoggy
                        j booth didnt you say you can add some bottom hand torque by squeezing the bottom three fingers or putting a lil pull on them?
                        Yeah you can use that feeling if you think it helps. It mostly just helps you keep the handle on a circular path, and it prevents you from locking the hinge. It ensures that the hands let the handle hinge rather than lock up tight. It prevents slowing down the bathead, more than it actually adds to acceleration.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hiddengem
                          I know this guys name has been discussed around here quite often, but I personally never knew anything about him. I recently was able to get a copy of his DVD that he did with a former player from the Astros.

                          Since a bit of this rotational type teaching is new to me, I'm wondering if Steve E, Siggy, Jbooth, ohfor, ect. that have studied rotational mechanics, can tell me what parts of Mankin's teachings they disagree with?
                          Appreciate being lumped in with the others but I really don't belong there. Anyway here's my take...

                          I think Scott summarized it well: Contribution of CHP is very important, THT should be avoided. (Scott, I don't recall exactly how Jack describes BHT... seems to me it was close to the Nyman's fishhook/hooking of the hands? Sorry been too long since I've watched the DVD - set me straight here.)

                          His front arm barring doesn't bother me - I see a fair number of videos where I would classify the hitter as barring and it seems to work okay as long as the arm flexion doesn't change and the arm/hand stays connected near the body (shoulder/chest). Might add a little speed to the swing at the cost of quickness.

                          A major omission to me is his lack of discussion about proper posture to set the swing plane. The drills he shows reinforce the elbow tucked in tightly to the side and rotating while standing straight up. If I recall correctly, the male student even starts his drills in a bat dragging position. To me, if you want to work rotation/connection without worrying about proper swing plane, set the tee chest high and work it there. Seems dangerous to teach kids to swing in a position you don't want later (- although Jack may want the elbow tucked?).

                          I also seem to recall him recommending a fair amount of inward turn (i.e., counter rotation, something like 30 degrees). I prefer the scap loading mechanism (note to all, I do not use the term scap loading while teaching hitters unless they understand what it means).


                          Hope this doesn't sounds like I'm bashing the DVD. I think his teachings can improve connection/rotation. I think I had some minor concerns about some of his wording (pull with front side or something like that) but I'd think if you take what he has and add in posture and avoid THT, you're probably in pretty good shape relative to most of the other instruction out there.

                          Btw, I'm basing almost all of my knowledge on memory and off of his DVD only. I haven't kept up with him closely since moving on to other things and he may have evolved some... I found I didn't get enough useful info from his forums compared to the other noise, so I rarely make it there anymore.
                          Last edited by jsiggy; 02-13-2006, 11:34 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by swingbuster
                            Elliotts 400 foot shots would suggest his bat speed if fairly high. Ball flight is a good indicator too.
                            Not trying to too my own horn here, but I can easily reach 400ft and alot further in a game situation and I currently have subpar mechanics. I guess I'm making it up somewhere? Steve has made the comment to me after seeing some swings that I start out pretty poorly but make up for it and get back into a good position. For this I think I've had some decent success at a high-level, but to have success "regularly" at a high-level some things are going to need a change. Steve, here I come

                            Also, after reading and rereading alot of the stuff you guys write and then finally getting the chance to see "some" of this stuff in action through Jacks DVD and other clips I now understand what the hands do in a "true" rotational swing. I think what I've been doing is trying to use rotational mechanics with my body while using linear mechanics with my hands and arms. I guess I've always been taught to try and keep my hands on a straight line to the ball, close to my body. But what I end up doing is "pushing" my hands in a straight line instead of just letting them follow the rotation of my torso.
                            Last edited by hiddengem; 02-13-2006, 12:46 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Gem-

                              I am a great mankin proponent.

                              I DO believe in "tht"/"bht"/"hand torque" - torque applied through hands primarily through arm and scap action which permit the hands to control the swing trajectory. Hands have max feel/prorpioception and arm strength is very important to this.

                              This torque is the controversial part of his theory. Just because physics types don't embrace it does not mean it isn't there. The scientific approach means trying hard to support its existence and only giving up when you can't.This has not been done rigourously/in peer reviewed fashion but needs to be.

                              The closest supporting evidence is actually from a Nyman computer simulation which demonstrated that a torquing force around the back shoulder applied to the bat handle by the top hand was very important in quickening bathead release/acceleration. Nyman's interpretation is that this force, while important HAD to be a purely reactive force applied by the merrygoround motion of the back arm and having more and more quickening effect the higher the mass of the back arm.

                              He called this force "back arm inertia".

                              I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the body does not harness/apply this force actively resulting in the "THT" effect that Mankin has described.

                              Mankin goes on to describe how the "direction" of application of this force varies with the inside as opposed to outside location.

                              This description, in my opinion, is exactly the same thing that Lau/Peavy are talking about when they describe the difference in how the knob is pulled for in vs out location. Lau describes it as lead arm pull and cautions agains any active back arm action for fear of causing "top hand dominance". Mankin thinks the top hand action is important for determing the direction of force when the lead arm is pulled.

                              In any case,this "PULL" must optimize/adjust a good load/twist, NOT disconnect/interrupt twist, And it must get the swing radius (lead arm stretch) set appropriately.

                              Mankin's lack of describing the full arm action sequence prevents good understanding of how to apply "THT" in my opinion. The only way to reliably describe it is to describe/demonstrate the arm and scap action required kinesiologically in my opinion (this is already understood pretty well by some pitching/throwing instructors and is very similar), or you can describe it as the sequence of motion that results from how thw bat coks and uncoks. This is best done by picking an MLB role model and emulating their pre-swing and early swing motions as exactly as possible. There is a reason why the best all go through the same kinesiological ar action sequence whether it be Bonds or PUjols,Williams, or Sheff,etc.

                              "BHT" is the same thing basically as "hook" although some degree of "BHT" is always applied (shoulders keep rotating til contact,lead shoulder rotating back more the more inside the location) if there is no deceleration before contact (dog always hits end of leash as Dixon said or always get lead arm extension as Lau says). Only for inside location is there a prominent HOOK. Mankin is pretty good at describing this hook for inside as being due primarily to front scap pinching action.

                              "CHP" (circular handpath) is the least (now) controversial idea which says that the handpath is circular by virtue of being driven by tight connection to an unwinding torso to harness the rotational energy of/momentum transfer from the rotating body.

                              I am personally an arm action is king guy, BUT I still think that the entire swing must be taught from beginning to end including attention to upper and lower body details. mankin claims to get good results focussing primarily on upper body alone. I am also a great believer after Epstein in "xfactor" or more exactly "xfactor STRETCH" - which is a descripiton of how coiling needs to happen to best enable momentum transfer to drive the swing as opposed to depending primarily on muscling the swing. Mankin is not an xfactor or lower body emphasis believer.

                              In the Final Arc II tape, the ex-Astro John Elloiott does get in some important lead leg flex info that Jack has also emphasized. He does mention inward turn, but not much about hip cok or rubber band winding or tilt, mainly just upper body cues with hitting/dry swings into a heavy bag which is good for checking total body position and learning timing of max batspeed at contact. he also uses a reasonable "backwards chaining" progression of one hand back hand drills (CHP),then adds the bottom hand (BHT), then adds scap arm action (THT) but without the kinesiological detail I would like to see.

                              Still a VERY important perspective on the swing. VERY good at videoanalysis.

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