Boggs

[hiddengem]

I believe I read it somewhere on this forum that Wade Boggs said he swung down to the ball. I think that might have been what he "thought" he did. Here is a little clip I found of him. Thoughts?

[ssarge]

HG:

It's not loading as a clip for me, only a still. But I am assuming your blue line is the bat path?


If Barry Bonds thought he swung down to the ball - and he DID think so, until Don Slaught showed him video demonstrating otherwise 2 years ago - then I believe Boggs could have thought so, too.

It's actually understandable. The bat is pointed past vertical at load, and ends up making contact at the knees. How could it possibly be headed UP?


It is great to listen to athletes talk about what they feel. That has a certain value. The problem I see is that feelings are individual, and also often don't dovetail with reality.

Personally, I think athletes kind of "feel" what they have been told they feel. If his swing coach - or other influencers - tells a hitter he is swinging down, he believes it. Whatever cues he has heard or used - no matter how they map to reality - are what he reiterates when asked to explain his swing.

I guarantee that my daughter would use my verbiage to describe her swing. Which may / may not be accurate language, and may / may not be sound mechanics. That would depend on me, I guess.


Unfortunately, BB Dad listens to Bonds - why wouldn't he? - and tries to replicate what he has heard in his young guys swing.


Video ain't perfect, but as we have all learned from Hanson's Dictum, it's the best truth detector out there.


Best regards,

Scott

[Ursa Major]

Part of the question is: what does "swing down" mean? Are we talking about the path of the hands or the path of the bathead? If it's the hands, sure the hands of lots of pros go down and pretty much stay "down" through contact, like in this swing by this well-known baseball star.



The path of the bathead is a different story. It's hard to believe that Boggs could hit the ball on the button as consistently as he did and without popups if he wasn't bringing the bat through the contact zone in the same plane as the incoming pitch -- i.e., slightly up. But it seems as though the "uppercut" of Boggs bathead was only at the very last instant, and he often finished low, so he gave the illusion of swinging down.

An interesting, but typically internally inconsistent, analysis of Boggs's swing conducted by Harold Reynolds can be found here:

http://media.tbo.com/tbo/flash/apps/boggs/boggsflash.htm

[swingbuster]

Ursa,

You made good points. When you guys put the circular plane around the batter in an oblique angle ( correctly) it is easy to the see that lanuch to approach side of the circle is down. Any attempt to swing up at initiation is impossible.

The timing and actual location of the unhinging of the wrist angle at the bottom of the circle on low pitches determines the angle tha ball will leave the bat.

Epsteins work and others of getting on plane is good stuff but on a pitch at the knees that gets harder to visualize without condsidering staying into the down path longer and having the bat tip release to a point ahead of the hands

Watched Auburn University play yesterday. Too much no stride, one piece spinning , no weight shift, rotate only stuff out there. Aluminum bat swings. All the oppo attempts yielding high lazy FB to RF and hooking the middle/ in stuff foul. Powerful kids but not a single MLB swing out there. Not one back toe dragging through contact. No momentum transfer. Cloning ...... They will not beat the good teams

[jbooth]

Ursa,

You made good points. When you guys put the circular plane around the batter in an oblique angle ( correctly) it is easy to the see that lanuch to approach side of the circle is down. Any attempt to swing up at initiation is impossible.

The timing and actual location of the unhinging of the wrist angle at the bottom of the circle on low pitches determines the angle tha ball will leave the bat.

Epsteins work and others of getting on plane is good stuff but on a pitch at the knees that gets harder to visualize without condsidering staying into the down path longer and having the bat tip release to a point ahead of the hands

Watched Auburn University play yesterday. Too much no stride, one piece spinning , no weight shift, rotate only stuff out there. Aluminum bat swings. All the oppo attempts yielding high lazy FB to RF and hooking the middle/ in stuff foul. Powerful kids but not a single MLB swing out there. Not one back toe dragging through contact. No momentum transfer. Cloning ...... They will not beat the good teams

Did you ever take Geometry in school? You don't seem to understand the difference between an Arc and the Plane.

A down swing has a downward PLANE, meaning the catcher's side of the plane is higher than the pitcher's side. Of course the arc or circle path of the bathead goes down then up, that isn't what we're talking about when we say down swing. The bathead goes from above your head, DOWN toward the strike zone, through it, and then up. But the plane of that arc can be at many different angles.

Here is the correct swing and the down swing planes;

[ssarge]

Best explanation / illustration I've seen on this topic, Jim. Very good.

Best regards,

Scott

[pgibbons]

If Barry Bonds thought he swung down to the ball - and he DID think so, until Don Slaught showed him video demonstrating otherwise 2 years ago - then I believe Boggs could have thought so, too.

That's so ironic, because on the flip side I "think" I swing with high-level MLB mechanics... Then I watch video of myself and say, "damn reality, I hate you" :grouchy

[johnny]

That's so ironic, because on the flip side I "think" I swing with high-level MLB mechanics... Then I watch video of myself and say, "damn reality, I hate you" :grouchy

try my tagline, it can be a help in times such as these :atthepc

[swingbuster]

Of course the arc or circle path of the bathead goes down then up,

Thanks Jim...hence the cues and Bonds thoughts.

Did you ever take Geometry in school

Your illustration was adequate.

I have taken more math, chemistry,biology, physics, physiology, histology, etc etc than you.

How useful is the swing up cue when you need a picture?

[jbooth]

How useful is the swing up cue when you need a picture?

Not everybody needs the cue. Most MLB hitters figured it out naturally. It IS the natural path, only when some fool like Hudgens tells you to swing on a down plane, does your career go in the toilet.

[jsiggy]

Boggs clip:

[WonderMonkey]

Boggs clip:

*** Edit of post to silently hide ignorence ***

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Interesting how much hand movement Boggsy had. His hands move down, back, and then to the ball, with his back elbow coming down earlier than most prefer.

[WonderMonkey]

I wonder if he had that much movement consistently? Or is he micro adjusting the whole time?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I wonder if he had that much movement consistently? Or is he micro adjusting the whole time?

That's a great point. It almost seems as if he gets fooled by a curveball, but with Boggs, he maintained his normal swing rhythm nicely. Watch just as his front foot hits the ground; it seems that more than the normal amount of time passes, before he begins his rotation. Maybe I'm not seeing it right, or maybe that's just his norm. Who knows. Boggs was definately more of a hands hitter than most, making adjustments with them depending on location.