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How soon is too soon?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JettSixty View Post

    There were two kids I told their dads they were overdoing it. The response was they’re big, strong (10yo) kids. Both missed their 12yo season with growth plate injuries. Another kid was was small for his age had bad mechanics. He missed his 12yo season with growth plate problems.
    I understand the injurys But what about stunted growth like with Gymnastics ?

    Comment


    • #17
      I too know a 10/11 yo kid that permanently screwed up his throwing arm by throwing way too much.

      I also know kids that hurt their backs lifting too young.
      efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by SuicideSqueeze View Post
        I've seen people mention that they wouldnt let their kid start pitching at 'x' age, or catching at 'x' age, or lifting at 'x' age.

        So...in you opinion when is "the right age" for these things?

        My son may get bumped to 9U for some games this season so he can pitch a bit. He's 8. He's always wanted to pitch, has a strong arm and decent control so I see no issue (2, 4, and change only....no breaking stuff)

        He has expressed some interest in catcher but I've been hesitant to do it for a few reasons. Cost and wear and tear being the 2 big ones.


        when did your kid start these things?
        my kid started catching when he was about 6 because he liked wearing the gear. He still catches (14U) because he's good at it and enjoys it. He started pitching ~8. He still pitches, no problems. No real magic to it. We tried to manage his pitching by LL rules between games and bullpens, but honestly, we threw all the time at home (mostly long toss type stuff) ~4-5 days a week Feb-July and Aug-Nov. For his 14u team, he's SS/CF/P/C, but honestly, he'll play anywhere -RF is great for the 9-3 opportunity as much as turning a 6-4-3 from SS. I never really worried about when he should do this or that. It's just a game and should be fun. He loves playing (and so do I). Isn't that the point? I would never want to stop him from enjoying the opportunities of being a kid. Dad's seem to long for the sandlot days, but can't stop "managing" their future HOFer.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by JettSixty View Post

          Too much, poorly taught and poorly supervised. The weight lifting depends on the build of the kid and his physical maturity. A prepubescent kid can have physical maturity ranging from that of a six year old to a twelve year old. I’m not convinced there’s value until a kid hits puberty. My ex is a personal trainer. She won’t train preteens due to potential growth plate issues.
          True that individuals that haven't developed far enough along into Tanner Stage 3-4 won't be able to take advantage of "training" to see impactful strength gains, but there is nothing wrong with young kids learning the techniques and movements of barbell training. My 85lb 12yo has been lifting with me occasionally this winter. It's for fun and to do something together. Number 1 rule is that I have to be there and safety was the first thing he was taught.

          Comment


          • #20
            When I was a kid, we lifted every fall and winter... Wood heat

            Comment


            • #21
              The best advice I can give you at this age (my son is an 11U player) is to make sure to emphasize accuracy and mechanics over velocity. More games will be won and lost during the 9U and 10U year of baseball by walks and passed balls than anything else, especially during the 9U season. If they can throw strikes and work ahead in counts they will be highly effective regardless of velocity. For my son, we worked on throwing a 4 seam fastball and a changeup regularly from flat ground playing toss and worked in a slider as he felt comfortable. Depending on how he felt that day, the changeup or the slider would be his second pitch. One other thing to keep an eye on is to make sure that he is keeping his arm path the same for all pitches at a young age as some will try to modify their mechanics in an effort to make the baseball have additional movement. This can lead to poor mechanics and create arm pain and potential damage.

              The second best piece of advice is to keep a close eye on the number of pitches he does at one time. Multiple small throwing sessions during the week are much better than one long session during the week. Tell them to let you and a coach know immediately whenever they are feeling pain at any time and to have a dialogue about how their arm feels throughout games and practices.

              Comment


              • #22
                We will never know the answers to these questions, probably ever. Every kid's make up is different. Every kid's mechanics are naturally different. Every kid gets different instruction on what proper mechanics SHOULD be. So how do we know when too soon is? How do we know exactly what mechanics hurt tendons and growth plates? You can look at the obvious like overuse, we all know that's detrimental. So how do we go about getting the answers to these questions?

                Take 1000 kids with different builds, age, and makeup. Video their mechanics and take xrays and MRI's every week or every month to analyze what's going on inside the arm. Then decide which mechanics are causing damage and which ones are not, depending upon the age and makeup of these kids. Then gather all information, graphs, and video to come to some sort of conclusion. See where I'm going with this? Not very feasible.

                I think common sense can play a big part in taking care of kids as they progress through baseball.

                My kid had elbow issues at 14 yo. He was NEVER overused, mainly a relief pitcher and 13u was a main starter when his highest pitch count was 65 and pitched once a week at most. Was told he has natural mechanics and a smooth delivery blah blah blah. So what caused his elbow issue? We may never know. Only thing we can think of is when he had like 5 tryouts in a 2 day span. I know for sure at one of those tryouts he did not take the time to warm up properly. Was that all it took? He had to take a full year off from pitching to recoop from that nagging injury. All the doctors saw was inflammation, no growth plate problems, tendon problems, nothing. But it was enough to keep him off the mound. Just to note, he was very skinny and maybe average height, but was always in the top 3 as far as hard thrower.

                We can all speculate and use our own kids as examples and that's fine, but it means nothing in correlation with other kids.
                If you let baseball kick your ass, it will

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Strike Three View Post
                  We will never know the answers to these questions, probably ever. Every kid's make up is different. Every kid's mechanics are naturally different. Every kid gets different instruction on what proper mechanics SHOULD be. So how do we know when too soon is? How do we know exactly what mechanics hurt tendons and growth plates? You can look at the obvious like overuse, we all know that's detrimental. So how do we go about getting the answers to these questions?

                  Take 1000 kids with different builds, age, and makeup. Video their mechanics and take xrays and MRI's every week or every month to analyze what's going on inside the arm. Then decide which mechanics are causing damage and which ones are not, depending upon the age and makeup of these kids. Then gather all information, graphs, and video to come to some sort of conclusion. See where I'm going with this? Not very feasible.

                  I think common sense can play a big part in taking care of kids as they progress through baseball.

                  My kid had elbow issues at 14 yo. He was NEVER overused, mainly a relief pitcher and 13u was a main starter when his highest pitch count was 65 and pitched once a week at most. Was told he has natural mechanics and a smooth delivery blah blah blah. So what caused his elbow issue? We may never know. Only thing we can think of is when he had like 5 tryouts in a 2 day span. I know for sure at one of those tryouts he did not take the time to warm up properly. Was that all it took? He had to take a full year off from pitching to recoop from that nagging injury. All the doctors saw was inflammation, no growth plate problems, tendon problems, nothing. But it was enough to keep him off the mound. Just to note, he was very skinny and maybe average height, but was always in the top 3 as far as hard thrower.

                  We can all speculate and use our own kids as examples and that's fine, but it means nothing in correlation with other kids.
                  What you say is true. Each circumstance is different. It’s important to use common sense. In the case of your son my best guess would be the stress on his arm came from becoming a starter at the new, longer distance. But there’s no way of knowing without having seen him pitch. I hope he’s ok now. You mention body frame. I was very conscious of how much my son pitched from twelve to fourteen when he threw much harder than he should have for his body frame.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JettSixty View Post

                    In the case of your son my best guess would be the stress on his arm came from becoming a starter at the new, longer distance. But there’s no way of knowing without having seen him pitch. I hope he’s ok now. You mention body frame. I was very conscious of how much my son pitched from twelve to fourteen when he threw much harder than he should have for his body frame.
                    At 12u they were at 50/70, 13u they were at 54/80, and obviously 14u was 60/90. So there was a nice transition there. Who the hell knows what happened. That 13u coach he had was awesome with pitchers. He seems fine now, throwing 80+, but it was a LONG and frustrating road for him. Sometimes it's hard to watch him pitch, always waiting for something to blow out!

                    So is it possible that one time not warming up enough can do damage like this? I don't know. It's probably an accumulation of things. I still don't think his plates are closed! They weren't a year or so ago. He turned 16 in Nov.
                    If you let baseball kick your ass, it will

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      A pitchers experiences micro tears in his arm when he pitches. These are tears that are so small they would be undetectable if you could see inside an arm. Rest repairs microtears. So typically arm probables are from accumulated effect.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by flyingmachine3 View Post

                        True that individuals that haven't developed far enough along into Tanner Stage 3-4 won't be able to take advantage of "training" to see impactful strength gains, but there is nothing wrong with young kids learning the techniques and movements of barbell training. My 85lb 12yo has been lifting with me occasionally this winter. It's for fun and to do something together. Number 1 rule is that I have to be there and safety was the first thing he was taught.
                        Agree with this. This is talked about at length on a Barbell Medicine podcast (Curious is that where you heard the reference to Tanner Stages because it's discussed on there.)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Suisidesqueeze,

                          “I've seen people mention that they wouldnt let their kid start pitching at 'x' age, or catching at 'x' age, or lifting at 'x' age.”
                          These people like most do not understand that stimulation develops these youth participants starting at any age after 2 biological years old and actually having a 2 year old learn how to replicate his already correct overhead (non-injurious/inside of vertical) throwing motion even later in life will allow him later to train sport specifically maximally without fear of any injurious effect. It is also known that over stimulation perturbs potential bone growth no matter what a general training advocate tells you.

                          “So...in you opinion when is "the right age" for these things?”
                          I like to start throwers/Pitchers at 6 biological years old. This ensures they have 4 forearm pronated pitch types by the time the start competitively pitching at biologically aged 10.

                          My son may get bumped to 9U for some games this season so he can pitch a bit. He's 8.
                          He is chronologically 8 years old. What is his biological age? Don't answer that , you don't know!
                          You won't be able to find out until he is biologically 10 and only if he is an equated maturer. What if he is a delayed maturer by 2 years? Are you sure you want him performing in adrenalin assisted ballistic competitions at that biological age? This is where most of the bone deformation occurs in youth pitchers and nobody escapes it's deforming effects, NOBODY !!

                          “He's always wanted to pitch, has a strong arm and decent control so I see no issue (2, 4, and change only....no breaking stuff)”
                          If you have taught him traditional intuitive “outside of vertical” forearm supinated driven pitch types then that fastball and changeup are grinding on his elbow also, this is a fact and the issue you have missed, just like most others. So you might as well teach him the off speed lateral movers.

                          The best thing you could possibly teach him is how to forearm pronate all his pitch or throw types. This will eliminate most of the types of injuries and inflamation brought on by the traditional approach

                          “He has expressed some interest in catcher but I've been hesitant to do it for a few reasons. Cost and wear and tear being the 2 big ones.”
                          I prefer that this age group and below has to rotate like Volleyball. Every player has to pitch and every player has to catch and every player has to rotate to play every position, even leftists playing short and catching. Rotation one move every inning, no one exempt.

                          “when did your kid start these things?”
                          Dude, you need to go to Drmikemarshall.com and read his materials that answers all the questions and false assumptions that have been put forth in this thread . It's by an actual expert in Human growth, exercise physiology and motor skill acquisition, unlike all the other pitching coaches everywhere.
                          Last edited by Dirtberry; 01-10-2018, 10:12 PM.
                          Primum non nocere

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AdamInNY View Post

                            Agree with this. This is talked about at length on a Barbell Medicine podcast (Curious is that where you heard the reference to Tanner Stages because it's discussed on there.)
                            It all started from helping research information for my son's interest and asking if he could lift. That turned into soaking up a lot of info this fall/winter and following the Starting Strength community. I also realized it would be a good idea for me to get back into lifting and I've really enjoyed gaining back a lot of strength that I have slowly lost over the last 20 years.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by songtitle View Post
                              I too know a 10/11 yo kid that permanently screwed up his throwing arm by throwing way too much.

                              I also know kids that hurt their backs lifting too young.
                              How do you know they hurt their backs lifting too young? I can see lifting too heavy, but don't see the connection with too young. My youngest, (13) was squating too heavy with garbage technique...Fortunately he didn't hurt himself, but if he did, it wouldn't have to do with age, it would have to do with bad technique and weight he was lifting.
                              Last edited by AdamInNY; 01-12-2018, 07:17 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AdamInNY View Post

                                How do you know they hurt their backs lifting too young? I can see lifting too heavy, but don't see the connection with too young. My youngest, (13) was squating too heavy with garbage technique...Fortunately he didn't hurt himself, but if he did, it wouldn't have to do with age, it would have to do with bad technique and weight he was lifting.
                                Great question. Everyone has heard of growth plates in the arm, but the back has them as well. If I had it to do all over again, I would only let my son lift his own body weight until he was 14 or probably 15.

                                Per https://neckandback.com/conditions/b...child-athlete/
                                Last edited by songtitle; 01-13-2018, 07:37 AM.
                                efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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