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Why a new law is driving big-time coaches out of high school sports

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Viking0 View Post
    .. A good administrator will know the difference between going over the line or sticking within it. ...
    Nah, that ain't true. Well, they may know the difference but if they are between a rock and a hard place they have to protect their job.

    If school coaching contracts elsewhere are like my area- and I'm pretty sure they are- then a coach can be fired without cause at any time. There is no recourse. That's the contract the coach and the school system agree to. So if a 100k administrator and a 2k coach get into some "issues" then there is only so much an administrator can do. Many have to "cave", if it comes down to it, because they are protecting their family.
    Major Figure

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by JettSixty View Post
      More and more high school coaches are leaving coaching at schools for instructing at academies. The pay is better. They’re less likely to ha e a parent go after them.
      I've noticed this quite a bit. One of the more respected "academies" or showcase groups in our area has made a name by hiring some of the better HS coaches away from their jobs. I always thought it was just a money thing but I guess this factors in as well.

      Comment


      • #18
        Some of the old school hs and college coaches also were really bad people. They might have won a lot but there also was a lot of shouting, name calling, insulting and bashing of own players, opponents and umpires.

        those coaches will argue they make the kids tougher and prepare them for life but you just can't behave like that towards kids anymore.
        I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Viking0 View Post
          I still think brushes are too broad. A good administrator will know the difference between going over the line or sticking within it. Good coaches and teachers will hold their kids accountable, but won't get into belittling them. Reading Mud's post, it seems that the biggest problem were not the "participation trophy" guys, but his chief. These problems have always been around, and I guarantee that every generation has complained about those younger than them.
          Viking, you're now just shifting the problem as to being the administrators/chiefs faults, and not the root cause of it all....nothing personal, but this is exactly what I'm talking about with parents nowadays.

          It's always someone else's fault besides the unruly, uninspired, unwhatever kid...because these kids believe that are owed something just for showing up, or participating at any level of effort they choose, and when they don't get what they want just because they entered whatever (and their parents are used to receiving just because they paid for it)...it's now everyone else's fault other than the lazy, and lackadaisical kid who has his parents believing he can do no wrong, no matter what kind of a screw up, goof off, or just plain nothingsville he's become over the years.

          So instead of lighting a fire under their kid's arse, or holding him accountable/responsible for his actions...they're off the complain to whomever, that their poor little precious baby must be being bullied, picked on, or treated unfairly. This is then what is learned by "participation trophy" kid when they grow up...blame someone else in the real world when it is they themselves who are the problem, not those around them.

          I could give you story after story of how we lowered hiring standards, changed our MOO (manual of operation), and/or amended our policies and procedures to accommodate the "participation trophy" kids...but I'll relate just one: We had a smaller firefighter who couldn't throw our 24' extension ladders singlehandedly, so rather than say "Thank you, you tried, but you will not be passing probation", we instead rewrote the MOO to state that the 24' extension ladder will no longer be a one-person throw, but now must be raised by two-persons. So as I captain, I no longer had the option of assigning one firefighter to raise the ladder, and another at the same time to pull hose for fire attack. Instead, two firefighters were doing the job of one, and we were wasting time getting water on the fire as quickly as we used to do, or should be doing....simply because we gave a "participation trophy" to a firefighter just for showing up, even if they couldn't get the job done.

          Part II - Now I kept on teaching my firefighters whom I felt capable of how to throw the ladder with just one person, and explained to them why it might be very important to be able to do one day on the fire ground, and w/o getting into too much detail, had that come back, and bite me in the patoot...when another "participation trophy" firefighter didn't think he should have to learn anything not in the MOO, and went straight to the fire chief, instead of coming to myself, going to the the battalion chief (my direct boss) if not satisfied with our outcome, or the deputy chief (my boss's boss) in that order. So rather than a simple sit down with myself, and a talk about why we both felt the way we did, and coming to some agreement (always did in the past with others)...the wheels were set in motion with "garbage" hurtling downhill getting bigger, and bigger until it became this big old ugly mess when it finally hit bottom.

          Yes, things worked out as you might figure, "participation trophy" firefighter didn't have to train throwing the one-person ladder, I was not "supposed to" teach it to anyone else from there on out (wink, wink)...."participation trophy" firefighter was instructed in great detail and in no uncertain terms to the proper use of the chain of command by myself and our BC...and since he wouldn't be training on the one-person ladder any longer, myself, and the rest of our crew thought that additional night drills (by the book) would be required to get, and keep him up to speed on the rest of his FF duties. Well I'm pleased to say that he turned out to be a pretty good firefighter, and now fire captain of his own crew, and has actually thanked me, and we laugh about our "participation trophy" firefighter, and the ones he has to deal with now. =)

          Yes, maybe a little long, and off the subject of baseball, coaches, ADs, and parents...but as I've said in the past, baseball is very much just a microcosm of the real world out there, in more ways than one...and "participation trophy" players and their parents are part of the problem, and nowhere near part of the solution.

          Skip's quote is so spot on....
          Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
          The attacks on coaches flow inevitably from parents believing that their devotion to their own children is noble and heroic; rather than narcissistic.

          "I would do ANYTHING for my family!"

          I'm expected to approve of that statement. But it makes me cringe.
          ...wish I had said it so succinctly.


          In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by dominik View Post
            Some of the old school hs and college coaches also were really bad people. They might have won a lot but there also was a lot of shouting, name calling, insulting and bashing of own players, opponents and umpires.

            those coaches will argue they make the kids tougher and prepare them for life but you just can't behave like that towards kids anymore.
            Guess we can surmise that you're not a big fan of military, fire and/or police academy drill instructors, the chain of command, or the required strictness of those institutions either then. Because a lot of that goes on there, and with "kids" just out of HS.

            Not saying that HS coaches have to be the exact same as drill instructors, police officers, or ranking fire officers, but if shouting at, insulting, or bashing a cocky, thinks-he-knows-it-all, screw off player makes a coach a "bad" person, instead of someone trying to right the kid's listing ship whose parents obviously have not...well then I feel sorry for the kid once he's an adult, and continues down that path of disrespect of persons of authority...just because they didn't "earn" his respect upon their initial, official "introduction".
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

            Comment


            • #21
              Yesterday, I was evaluated as a High School Coach (2 sports) per our new system of evaluation. In doing this, I was asked what were my plans after next year when I retire as a teacher. I was surprised to hear some of the criteria. As with the new teaching evaluation system that is supposed to be used nation wide in a few years, it blows my mind. I will be resigning my coaching jobs as I retire though I was asked to stay on since I no longer fit in. I guess in the future coaches will be asking the players if they would please try to do better. Maybe ask them if they would please treat their teammates well. Maybe ask if they would please demonstrate intensity. I apologize but I will tell this story one more time. I was seriously intense as a basketball coach. I should not have been allowed to coach it but we won a lot. I yelled at one player a lot more than any other player I had ever coached. He had so much potential but needed a stricter harder approach from me. He went on to play in college and did well. I was in a car wreck and was really messed up. Brianna was real young at the time. I had a rental car and was headed to the hospital for more test as I wasn't doing well. I stopped for gas and Stacy was there. When he saw how messed up I was, he started crying. BB asked him why he was crying. He said, "I love your dad and I don't want anyone to ever hurt him." That tells me all I need to know about how "Old School" I was/am and how it works.
              Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

              I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                Guess we can surmise that you're not a big fan of military, fire and/or police academy drill instructors, the chain of command, or the required strictness of those institutions either then. Because a lot of that goes on there, and with "kids" just out of HS.

                Not saying that HS coaches have to be the exact same as drill instructors, police officers, or ranking fire officers, but if shouting at, insulting, or bashing a cocky, thinks-he-knows-it-all, screw off player makes a coach a "bad" person, instead of someone trying to right the kid's listing ship whose parents obviously have not...well then I feel sorry for the kid once he's an adult, and continues down that path of disrespect of persons of authority...just because they didn't "earn" his respect upon their initial, official "introduction".
                If your problem with my analogy is that coaching and teaching are fundamentally different (in your opinion) and can't be compared, why are you allowed to equate coaching to firefighting or military training? Completely different ballgame. No one's life is on the line if a kid doesn't run out a pop-up.

                And to follow up on your response to me earlier: you mentioned that my job isn't on the line and/or I don't called into a principal's/department chair's office if I give a kid a bad grade. That's 100% false. This is why so many teachers have resigned themselves to giving multiple choice tests (even though they know it's a less useful assessment of a student's thinking). They do so because multiple choice is harder for a parent to argue with. Those of us who, nonetheless, decide that a student's critical thinking is better assessed with essays, short answers, etc., will regularly have a line of students at our offices when handing back said papers. And we do get challenged (by students, parents, department heads, etc.) to have to explain why a particular answer was subjectively assessed to be of lesser quality than another student's answer. It's really not all that different than being called in to defend a varsity cut to the AD. Granted, as OMG stated, my contract is at least more difficult to terminate than a coach's contract, so my job isn't typically on the line in such conversations. But to assume that teachers don't get called to defend grades is patently wrong.

                The one thing we can all agree on, I think, is that Skipper hit the nail squarely on the head. It's an issue that is tied to contemporary parents' need to protect their kids. Sometimes that need is real and is exercised in ways that are fully warranted (cf. the father who tried to attack the gymnastics doctor in the courtroom). Often the supposed need to protect is more imagined than warranted. The result is a lot of entitled kids out there (in schools, on sports teams, and apparently in the Fire Academy as well). But as long as lives aren't on the line (i.e., the case with school & sports), I still don't think entitled kids deserve to be verbally abused. Held to a standard, yes. Not belittled.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Scrub View Post
                  If your problem with my analogy is that coaching and teaching are fundamentally different (in your opinion) and can't be compared, why are you allowed to equate coaching to firefighting or military training? Completely different ballgame. No one's life is on the line if a kid doesn't run out a pop-up.
                  Good point, fair enough, and my mistake...because if I'm also going to say that baseball is a microcosm of life...classroom teaching is definitely a big part of that. I stand corrected, and extend my apologies.

                  And to follow up on your response to me earlier: you mentioned that my job isn't on the line and/or I don't called into a principal's/department chair's office if I give a kid a bad grade. That's 100% false. This is why so many teachers have resigned themselves to giving multiple choice tests (even though they know it's a less useful assessment of a student's thinking). They do so because multiple choice is harder for a parent to argue with. Those of us who, nonetheless, decide that a student's critical thinking is better assessed with essays, short answers, etc., will regularly have a line of students at our offices when handing back said papers. And we do get challenged (by students, parents, department heads, etc.) to have to explain why a particular answer was subjectively assessed to be of lesser quality than another student's answer. It's really not all that different than being called in to defend a varsity cut to the AD. Granted, as OMG stated, my contract is at least more difficult to terminate than a coach's contract, so my job isn't typically on the line in such conversations. But to assume that teachers don't get called to defend grades is patently wrong.
                  Yes, I wasn't necessarily saying that teachers don't get called to defend their grading (kind of surprised it's to the point of parents in the DH's or principal's office, but I guess I shouldn't be nowadays); I was more or less speaking on or comparing the difference in the duality of plight of coach vs that of classroom teacher when if comes to "grading" for both. As you mention, a teacher can change their testing to circumvent student and/or parental complaints, but the outcome is still basically the same...the student's performance hasn't changed, and the teacher is not penalized in anyway if the student or majority of the classroom of students underperform in their abilities. Comparatively, a coach cannot simply change his coaching to pacify some players and/or parents, and if he did manage to figure out to somehow do that...and the player, and/or majority of the players go on to underperform as a result, he can then be penalized by losing his job for a poor W/L performance record, even if he changed to meet all of the demands of the players and/or parents.

                  That's more or less why I don't see as much correlation with teaching, coaching, and maybe some other professions, but will say there are similarities that can be made amongst coaching, and just about any profession to some extent or another.

                  The one thing we can all agree on, I think, is that Skipper hit the nail squarely on the head. It's an issue that is tied to contemporary parents' need to protect their kids. Sometimes that need is real and is exercised in ways that are fully warranted (cf. the father who tried to attack the gymnastics doctor in the courtroom). Often the supposed need to protect is more imagined than warranted. The result is a lot of entitled kids out there (in schools, on sports teams, and apparently in the Fire Academy as well). But as long as lives aren't on the line (i.e., the case with school & sports), I still don't think entitled kids deserve to be verbally abused. Held to a standard, yes. Not belittled.
                  Again, fair enough, although I believe that "verbally abused", and "belittled" are a little too easily used for the emotional "broad brush" hot button words, and that that's a bit of a stretch for describing most of the "old school" coaches.

                  Yes, anyone who is constantly "abused" and "belittled" as part of that abuse in any way is to be protected, and removed from that kind of environment...but just because someone gets yelled at, or even called something that might not be too flattering, doesn't mean that they are being "abused" or "belittled" if there is also more love, caring, and concern given, and displayed towards that player/person than the occasional, momentary yelling or even the supposed "name-calling" that's can be more silly than ever vicious or demeaning (examples can be provided if necessary, but I think you get the idea).
                  In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I'm not sure I disagree with anything you posted in this most recent post, Mud. In fact, I almost feel as though we're saying many of the same things (baseball is sometimes a microcosm of life, sometimes like a classroom, sometimes like a military unit striving toward a goal, etc.--but it's never quite all of that all of the time). But we're also throwing around extreme examples ("abuse," "belittling," "sunshine & rainbows," etc.) to represent complex concepts that are rarely that extreme on either end of the spectrum. In truth, I suspect we're both pretty much in agreement regarding having standards, challenging young men/women to be their best, respecting those young people in the process, but also being disappointed when that same respect isn't offered us by some parents/kids. I've appreciated the back and forth, as you've helped me think through some of these things in a more complex way. That's the beauty of BB101 for me. Thanks, Mud.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                      Guess we can surmise that you're not a big fan of military, fire and/or police academy drill instructors, the chain of command, or the required strictness of those institutions either then. Because a lot of that goes on there, and with "kids" just out of HS.

                      Not saying that HS coaches have to be the exact same as drill instructors, police officers, or ranking fire officers, but if shouting at, insulting, or bashing a cocky, thinks-he-knows-it-all, screw off player makes a coach a "bad" person, instead of someone trying to right the kid's listing ship whose parents obviously have not...well then I feel sorry for the kid once he's an adult, and continues down that path of disrespect of persons of authority...just because they didn't "earn" his respect upon their initial, official "introduction".
                      I have mixed feelings on that. I do think there was a lot of unsanctioned abuse happening in those institutions (sometimes even physical and sexual but at the very least emotional) and it was too much but on the other hand I think this whole "safe space" and "feel good" thing that is happening in schools and now even in univiersities goes too far either because that protected non threatening life doesn't really reflect real life.
                      I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        This might get long and I might jump around..

                        I've stated here more than one time (and believe it to my core)...you can be "old school", you can work kids hard, you can even yell, cuss, whatever. The key is that the kids know that you care for them, NOT that they're your little robots to be manipulated or demoralized so you can puff out your chest, be "big man", whatever, just because you can. You have to care for them. Most kids understand chain of command. They want structure. They want discipline. My son had a great relationship with his HS coach, and he was old school. Oftentimes you would see them walking to the bus beside each other after away games. He was hard on my son, probably held him to a higher standard than most of the other players, but my son never ever doubted that he cared for him and loved him, he knew it, because coach showed him that he did. I would guess that either one of them would run through a brick wall, not for, but WITH each other. They had their times, their disagreements...the fear/hatred of losing was more than the desire to win. When you are intense, things happen, things get said sometimes, but things get ironed out. Most parents want to jump in and rescue their kids immediately. I would just offer this...in a vast majority of cases, let it be, let them work it out without your involvement. You don't have to rescue unless clearly a serious line has been crossed (and that's not cussing, running, etc.). Too many parents want to get involved at the first small thing that upsets their little baby. Let your kids handle their own affairs unless it's something that's clearly a dangerous situation.

                        There's only one time my son said he didn't want to play for a particular coach again (he had choices), and I agreed with his decision. Good fundamental coach, but he was a belittling egomaniac. You have to discern what is healthy and what isn't.

                        Just talking about this article makes me a bit sad. My son's intentions are ultimately to teach (and coach), it will be his college major. I am proud of his decision and will support him 100%, but I know the environment that he will be faced with, and it sometimes turns my stomach. I've seen how good people are torn down, political games are played, things can get over your head quickly. Through my son's teacher cadet program, he's had the opportunity to be a part of the classroom from the teacher side of things, in various schools. I'll just say, there are good teachers and bad teachers. Some really do care. Some are there to ride out their careers, and those that are riding most likely wouldn't last more than a week or two in a setting where they have to perform or they'll replace them with someone who will. It's my opinion that some of the best teachers are being driven out (in part) because they will not continue to be a part of a system that rewards mediocrity, and alot of that goes back to parents and administration.

                        I know personally teachers and administrators that have hung it up because it's not worth the hassle. It's not just sports coaches. About 10 years ago, one principal tendered his resignation after the school board overruled his decision. Multiple and various verifiable incidents, he expelled, parents went over his head, he got overruled. I would have done the same thing. You hire me to do a job, let me do it. If you think you can do it better, have at it.

                        Most of this comes back to parents. Alot of them aren't preparing their kids for the real world, like my parents prepared me, like I've tried to prepare my kids. It's a big bad world out there. The other side of HS and college (the real world) is going to be a wakeup call, and I believe we're already seeing the fruits of what has been planted 20 years ago. I shudder to think about the fruits that are being planted now. Perhaps that comes across as "get off my lawn" or "old man yells at cloud". It's truly not meant that way, just the way that I see things, whether you agree or not.

                        I'm not a basketball fan, don't watch it, but this guy gets it.
                        FrankMartinToughLove.jpgC77LfbtUwAcllaf.jpg
                        Ty Cobb-"Every great batter works on the theory that the pitcher is more afraid of him than he is of the pitcher."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                          Viking, you're now just shifting the problem as to being the administrators/chiefs faults, and not the root cause of it all....nothing personal, but this is exactly what I'm talking about with parents nowadays.

                          It's always someone else's fault besides the unruly, uninspired, unwhatever kid...because these kids believe that are owed something just for showing up, or participating at any level of effort they choose, and when they don't get what they want just because they entered whatever (and their parents are used to receiving just because they paid for it)...it's now everyone else's fault other than the lazy, and lackadaisical kid who has his parents believing he can do no wrong, no matter what kind of a screw up, goof off, or just plain nothingsville he's become over the years….
                          This seems to me to be a pretty good example of using a “broad brush”. Your implication is that in the “good old days” no parent ever believed their child “could do no wrong”.

                          I’m here to tell ya that as long as there have been parents, some have believed their child “could do no wrong”.

                          And saying that every “unruly, uninspired, unwhatever kid” today believes they “are owed something just for showing up, or participating at any level of effort they choose, and when they don't get what they want just because they entered whatever (and their parents are used to receiving just because they paid for it)” is equally a wide brush.

                          While that’s certainly true some of the time, it’s certainly not true in every case. Its talk like that that has this country in the state it is now. If you say something long enough and loud enough, it eventually becomes true whether it is or not!

                          The real truth is, parents beliefs and actions come in many shapes and sizes, and just because a kid is “unruly, uninspired, unwhatever”, it doesn’t mean it’s because of the same thing every time.
                          The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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                          • #28
                            I believe some players and parents can’t see the difference between pushing a player/team and verbally abusing them. I had a parent accuse me of abusing an 11/12 rec team for the following ...

                            My stated goal at the beginning of the season was we improve every week so we can compete for the championship at the end of the season. When I coached basketball my style was Paul Westhead’s run and gun combined with stifling half court trapping defense. Players had to be in shape. I wasn’t a big post game talker. Say something, remind them of the next practice and get out of the gym.

                            After a game I said there was good news and bad news. The good news was we won. The bad news was developmentally we went backwards. We didn’t play well. We didn’t hustle the entire game. We won’t always be able to turn it on in the last five minutes of a game. One parent grabbed his son and said he was not going to allow me to abuse his son. His son was a goof off. I often had to reprimand him in practice.

                            When I stopped coaching basketball my son told me any kid who was decent at basketball wanted to play for me. He told me winning a lot was great. But the intense style of play was a lot of fun. The only players and parents who didn’t like me were the lazy players. As I told one parent, I can’t expect every player to play as well as my son (I was accused of this expectation.) But they can play as hard and fill a role.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
                              Yesterday, I was evaluated as a High School Coach (2 sports) per our new system of evaluation. In doing this, I was asked what were my plans after next year when I retire as a teacher. I was surprised to hear some of the criteria. As with the new teaching evaluation system that is supposed to be used nation wide in a few years, it blows my mind. I will be resigning my coaching jobs as I retire though I was asked to stay on since I no longer fit in. I guess in the future coaches will be asking the players if they would please try to do better. Maybe ask them if they would please treat their teammates well. Maybe ask if they would please demonstrate intensity. I apologize but I will tell this story one more time. I was seriously intense as a basketball coach. I should not have been allowed to coach it but we won a lot. I yelled at one player a lot more than any other player I had ever coached. He had so much potential but needed a stricter harder approach from me. He went on to play in college and did well. I was in a car wreck and was really messed up. Brianna was real young at the time. I had a rental car and was headed to the hospital for more test as I wasn't doing well. I stopped for gas and Stacy was there. When he saw how messed up I was, he started crying. BB asked him why he was crying. He said, "I love your dad and I don't want anyone to ever hurt him." That tells me all I need to know about how "Old School" I was/am and how it works.
                              While I know you still have a lot to offer the school, the teams, and your players, I completely understand how you feel about not fitting in. I've been asked to coach at our local schools since our move a few years back after my retirement, but after going to watch a few of the games just to get a look at the teams, the players, and a feel for the environment up in the stands...I couldn't (and can't) see myself ever going back to the coaching at a public school again.

                              With that said, let me also be the first here to say, "Congratulations on your upcoming retirement, and chance to rediscover your family, friends...and really life all over again once out of and away from the coaching scene". Until you're away from it for a little while, will you realize just how time consuming, stressful, but yet at the same time rewarding that it can all really be. But what I think you'll eventually come to realize, is just how much your family was as much a part of your success in coaching then you ever realized...and it's now their time to have your undivided attention again. And that while they never said anything about it, they missed you when you always having some portion your teams, and players on your mind whether on or off the field 24/7....even if they never said anything about it.

                              Yes, while all jobs take away from family life in one way or another, adding coaching on top of one is just one more layer of attention that family members have to get through; with many of us not realizing just how thick that layer can be until they stop coaching, or a significant other has had enough, and says "adios". I, as I'm sure you are, was fortunate enough to have a spouse who while maybe not 100% willingly, was able to understand our love of the game, the rewards both physically and emotionally we received from it, and allowed us the opportunities to continue to pursue all that, probably much longer than we needed to, or really should have.

                              I'm sure you know I could go on, and on, but suffice it to say...while it may seem like a big part of you is missing once you step away from the coaching that's been such a big part of your life for so many, many years....just know that there's someone (if not a couple folks) at home that have sacrificed a lot as well for all those years for your coaching, who will more than likely be very pleased, happy, and excited to fill that coaching void in your life. It many take a little bit to see or feel it, as it's oftentimes very subtle, but with time, and practice...I'm sure you'll come to enjoy, appreciate, and love it as much as you thought you did coaching.


                              Congrats again CB, and all the best,
                              mud - ex-expert, and ex-coach. =)
                              In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Scrub View Post
                                I'm not sure I disagree with anything you posted in this most recent post, Mud. In fact, I almost feel as though we're saying many of the same things (baseball is sometimes a microcosm of life, sometimes like a classroom, sometimes like a military unit striving toward a goal, etc.--but it's never quite all of that all of the time). But we're also throwing around extreme examples ("abuse," "belittling," "sunshine & rainbows," etc.) to represent complex concepts that are rarely that extreme on either end of the spectrum. In truth, I suspect we're both pretty much in agreement regarding having standards, challenging young men/women to be their best, respecting those young people in the process, but also being disappointed when that same respect isn't offered us by some parents/kids. I've appreciated the back and forth, as you've helped me think through some of these things in a more complex way. That's the beauty of BB101 for me. Thanks, Mud.
                                Scrub, the feelings are mutual, and I thank you for the pleasant, but yet somewhat complex discussion....and yes, that is the beauty of BB101 as a whole when done correctly.

                                Again, thanks for your thoughts, and insight, it was a pleasure to learn from you, and I think you're spot on with thoughts that the respect is not automatically a two way street as I believe it once was. This idea that come about, and even been repeated here that "respect is earned" is nonsense IMO, and where I think a lot of problems arise from. When I meet someone for the first time, I respect them until they prove otherwise. Who am I to think that I should be respected right off the bat, but that others should somehow have to "earn" mine?

                                Thus the problem with that kind of uneven playing field that's been created with this "earned respect" nonsense. I'm supposed to automatically respect the players, but I have to "earn the players respect"...or the police officer is automatically suppose to respect the person(s) he comes in contact with, but the police officer must "earn their respect" in order to do his job effectively according to some? Obviously something's gone awry if that's truly the mentality out there nowadays...respect must automatically be mutual, or there's obviously going to be a breakdown in communication almost immediately. I think I'll just leave it at that...


                                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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