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Was the Umpire Correct?

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  • #16
    Sounds to me like the coach at third took advantage of a situation, which is bush IMO. Yes, the play is technically still live, but everyone on the field knows (or should) that when an umpire steps in front of the plate to clean it off, it's an implied TO, whether called or not. Play the game right. You know when things are right and when they're wrong. You're not Bobby Cox, you're a LL coach teaching kids. Do the right thing. Tell the runner to keep his butt at third.

    Ty Cobb-"Every great batter works on the theory that the pitcher is more afraid of him than he is of the pitcher."

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    • #17
      That is exactly my thoughts on the matter. It's like you are in my head.

      Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Pwrecker289 View Post
        Question 1: Can there be umpire obstruction without my pitcher making the throw? If no, should I actually instruct my players to throw the ball at the backside of an umpire in order to have a chance of stopping the run?
        No one has yet pointed out that there are only two kinds of umpire interference:

        1) The umpire gets hit by a batted ball before it passes a fielder. Should not happen on the 60' diamond, as the base umpire should be working outside the infield.
        2) The umpire interferes with a catcher throwing to a base on a steal or pickoff, or the throw back to the pitcher. Unlikely with the tight bases in Majors.

        Neither of those happened, so there can be no umpire interference. (I agree with others that the ball should have been dead.)
        Patrick

        "Can't anybody play this here game?" -- Casey Stengel

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        • #19
          "Time out" is pretty much always assumed if an ump is brushing the plate after action has stopped at that level. The truth is that some umps don't know any better a lot just don't care to yell time out constantly.

          I realize there have been instances in baseball history where an ump cleaned the plate while a play was still live and runners were awarded their bases.

          In any case, in LL Majors as long as the catcher is ready to receive the runner can't leave the base if the pitcher has the ball on the rubber (until ball reaches batter). Ready to receive doesn't even mean squatting. He just has to have his gear on in the catcher's box and face the pitcher.

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          • #20
            There is no such thing as time out being assumed. It either is (by declaration or by rule,) or it isn't. This is not one of those times where time is out by rule, therefore without a declaration, the ball is live. Thus, the run scores.

            Whether the umpire should have called time is a different question. And, of course, whether the offense should have taken advantage of the situation is a much larger question (as shown above.)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Matt13 View Post
              There is no such thing as time out being assumed. It either is (by declaration or by rule,) or it isn't. This is not one of those times where time is out by rule, therefore without a declaration, the ball is live. Thus, the run scores.
              Yes, "by declaration or by rule"...but why would any umpire turn his back on the field of play when the ball's still live? Seems as though nothing good can come from it.

              Not calling "time", and to then turn one's rear end towards a live ball is either an umpire who's too lazy, too nonchalant, or just too forgetful...none of which I'd really want from one calling my games. JMO naturally...
              In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                Yes, "by declaration or by rule"...but why would any umpire turn his back on the field of play when the ball's still live? Seems as though nothing good can come from it.

                Not calling "time", and to then turn one's rear end towards a live ball is either an umpire who's too lazy, too nonchalant, or just too forgetful...none of which I'd really want from one calling my games. JMO naturally...
                Like I said, this is probably level-dependent. The less time the ball is not in play, the better the flow of the game. I've got a crew that can watch for things at my level, and any runner that wants to bet he can run 90 feet faster than a throw from 60 feet, well, he's more than welcome to try.

                If we're talking one umpire, then yes, time absolutely should be called. I would say that even at youth levels, if there's more than one, there should be no need--situational awareness can put PU back where he needs to be.

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                • #23
                  We literally had an ump fall dead three years ago in the hot southern sun during a TB tourney. DRT...I wonder if the R took advantage of the opportunity. I don't say that disrespectfully, it really happened and according to what has been stated above, a kid could have circled the bases.

                  If a coach sent a kid while I was cleaning the plate, I would send him back and warn the coach not to try such shenanigans again...allowed by the letter of the rules or not.
                  Put your junk in your pocket!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 2022dad View Post
                    We literally had an ump fall dead three years ago in the hot southern sun during a TB tourney. DRT...I wonder if the R took advantage of the opportunity. I don't say that disrespectfully, it really happened and according to what has been stated above, a kid could have circled the bases.
                    No, because if an umpire becomes incapacitated, time is called by rule.

                    Originally posted by 2022dad View Post
                    If a coach sent a kid while I was cleaning the plate, I would send him back and warn the coach not to try such shenanigans again...allowed by the letter of the rules or not.
                    If you're umpiring, stick to the rules. If it's going to be an issue, call time. If you don't, and this happens, it's on you. Cleaning the plate takes less than two seconds--maintain your awareness, clean the plate, and get back to the game. If someone runs on it, get in position to officiate it.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Matt13 View Post
                      There is no such thing as time out being assumed.
                      It's 10 year olds playing a Little League game. Although ideally maybe he should call time (and this varies as there are good umps out there who don't believe in calling time each time they brush the plate) I don't see it as a big deal in a league where runners aren't allowed to advance when the catcher is in his box and the pitcher on the rubber anyway.

                      The only way the run's valid is if there was an ongoing play which I assume wouldn't be the case or he wouldn't be brushing off home with a runner 60 feet away. IOW you could make the argument that defense tried to take advantage of the misconception that play automatically stops whenever the pitcher receives the ball. However, the situation described is that R3 was standing on 3B, pitcher is on the rubber, and runner breaks when ump cleans the plate.

                      You have to read between the lines but OP says, " I also argued that because my pitcher was on the rubber, the runner left the base early and should be sent back. They said no, as no wind up began." The rule is that if the pitcher is on the rubber and the catcher is in his box and in his gear facing the pitcher, the runners have to be on the base. The windup is inconsequential. The rule isn't quite the, "Throw it to the pitcher so everybody has to stop running!" that many think it is but it sure isn't a case of runners being able to do whatever they want until the pitcher winds up. If that was the case you could steal bases as long as you left before pitcher's first move.

                      If they want to do it casually by standards of good sportsmanship, runner goes back to 3B and ump tells everybody to chill out. If they want to be hardnosed about the rules, okay, then by rule runner is OUT for leaving base early.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Matt13 View Post




                        If you're umpiring, stick to the rules.
                        Right. Runner is out for leaving 3B early. There's no rule about, "the pitcher didn't start the windup". So R3 should go back to the dugout and think about his bush league play.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Matt13 View Post

                          No, because if an umpire becomes incapacitated, time is called by rule.



                          If you're umpiring, stick to the rules. If it's going to be an issue, call time. If you don't, and this happens, it's on you. Cleaning the plate takes less than two seconds--maintain your awareness, clean the plate, and get back to the game. If someone runs on it, get in position to officiate it.
                          So, the defense is penalized bc the umpire has abandoned the play (back to the original post)? What happens if it's a close play, the HPU hears the crowd starting to yell, looks up and misses the play at the plate, and the FU can't see the play. Sorry, I can't see how this is not a dead ball situation. It sounds like the needs to be a clarification.
                          Put your junk in your pocket!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 2022dad View Post

                            So, the defense is penalized bc the umpire has abandoned the play (back to the original post)? What happens if it's a close play, the HPU hears the crowd starting to yell, looks up and misses the play at the plate, and the FU can't see the play. Sorry, I can't see how this is not a dead ball situation. It sounds like the needs to be a clarification.
                            It could be that we're missing something. But the rule is if the pitcher has the ball and is touching the rubber and the catcher is in the box and facing the pitcher it's a dead ball until the pitcher's pitch reaches the batter. It doesn't even matter if the catcher is just standing up and adjusting his cup while singing Nickelback as long as he has his gear on and is facing the pitcher from his box.

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                            • #29
                              They added "No nickelback singing" to the catcher's balk rules last year. You can't even hum it. It is a 3 base penalty.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by queue View Post
                                They added "No nickelback singing" to the catcher's balk rules last year. You can't even hum it. It is a 3 base penalty.
                                And thank God for that. It's a much needed rule. The less Nickelback in this world, the better I always say.

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