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  • Forum_jedi
    replied
    Well, this thread went off of the rails!

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  • Cannonball
    replied
    Originally posted by rodk View Post

    Yes, it is limited exposure. 10% of the US population doesn't play the game; it has evaporated. The girls here get lacrosse scholarships.

    As far as different, I suppose. The ball is bigger; the girls are smaller. Certain stuff has to play out differently.

    One of them, however, is not employment of brainpower. Another is not being cemented in position. You will notice that second baseman is facing the plate; she has zoned out. She never moved during that play. The first baseman has stayed fixed too, despite presumably being aware her right fielder will never be able to reach her and presumably noticing the second baseman has zoned out. There was no play at second or at third or any reason for a cutoff at the second base bag, especially as the right fielder cannot reach there. The ball is still in the outfield as the runner turned second, and no one is throwing that runner out from right field then.

    Watch all of it in its glory at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIbkD3OF4EI Start at about 3:15:00. FWIW, the first baseman's subsequent failure to eat the ball and opt instead for a throw-it-around-the-infield throw to third where there was no one backing up long after the runner got there was fortunate not to yield the losing run on that same play.

    As far as everyone coaching that way, well, there are a lot of weak standards in our world. You don't have to look too far past school itself to note how badly the teaching process runs because they only try to address lowest common denominator and low expectations. If, as you posit, the school coaches get it wrong consistently, that only means that they adhere to a weak standard.

    As for finding an Ozzie Smith video, don't bother unless you find him making 5 errors on the same play.
    Wow is all I can say. 10% of the US population. Now, that is a stat. One could then ask how much of that population are young ladies playing softball? I have seen estimates from 9.5 million which I will state is questionable. Hey, I can find statements that say as recent as 2012, 40 million people played softball.

    I watched that video about 10 times now. It is clear that you don't know the game. Where would you put the 2b? Where should the 1B be? How should the RF have played the ball? Per weak standards, I can find terrible games at both the MLB and collegiate levels. I can find players of every ability have bad games. I know the levels of play and have seen thousands of games in both baseball. I'd post my baseball resume but why would I. You come off as an expert. I'm an ex expert. For softball, my daughter was one of five players nominated for NCAA Player of the Year. So, I know first hand the standards. You have watched a game, talked to a JV coach, seen 12U teams and believe that a stat about softball players making up 10% of the U.S. population is somehow a valid statistic. That in and of itself says a lot. Hey, be glad you don't have a daughter and move on.
    Last edited by Cannonball; 12-12-2018, 08:13 PM.

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  • JettSixty
    replied
    Your best option is to accept you know squat about softball and give up.

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  • rodk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
    Rod, your exposure to the softball world is extremely limited. The game is a lot different as well. While I won't address all of the things you posted, I'll address the screen shot though I do not know how the entire play unfolded. You mention that you were shocked at that the commentators did not realize that the cuts were wrong. Rod, it is you that does not know the game of softball. With a ball in the corner, The 1B is where she should be per a potential throw to the plate. The 2B is probably where she was coached to be given that one runner has already rounded 2b. Most college softball diamonds are 200' down the lines and so, cutoffs and positioning are not the same as with baseball. That 2B would be asked to be the first cut on a throw to 2B and then relay the throw to 3B or run the ball in. She would not be running out too far to the short corner. The OF is expected to have a great arm in the programs you mention. The SS is moving to a position to cut the ball if the throw is over the 2B head. Having not seen the play, I'd suspect that the throw should go to 1B.

    **************


    I'll wrap up by saying that you do not know the sport and so, in viewing, you think that it is being coached poorly. I have coached both baseball and softball at very high levels. Typically, when a baseball coach takes over a softball program, you see a downward spiral until they come to the recognition that the sports are different. (Note, hitting imo is the same but we don't slap.)
    Yes, it is limited exposure. 10% of the US population doesn't play the game; it has evaporated. The girls here get lacrosse scholarships.

    As far as different, I suppose. The ball is bigger; the girls are smaller. Certain stuff has to play out differently.

    One of them, however, is not employment of brainpower. Another is not being cemented in position. You will notice that second baseman is facing the plate; she has zoned out. She never moved during that play. The first baseman has stayed fixed too, despite presumably being aware her right fielder will never be able to reach her and presumably noticing the second baseman has zoned out. There was no play at second or at third or any reason for a cutoff at the second base bag, especially as the right fielder cannot reach there. The ball is still in the outfield as the runner turned second, and no one is throwing that runner out from right field then.

    Watch all of it in its glory at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIbkD3OF4EI Start at about 3:15:00. FWIW, the first baseman's subsequent failure to eat the ball and opt instead for a throw-it-around-the-infield throw to third where there was no one backing up long after the runner got there was fortunate not to yield the losing run on that same play.

    As far as everyone coaching that way, well, there are a lot of weak standards in our world. You don't have to look too far past school itself to note how badly the teaching process runs because they only try to address lowest common denominator and low expectations. If, as you posit, the school coaches get it wrong consistently, that only means that they adhere to a weak standard.

    As for finding an Ozzie Smith video, don't bother unless you find him making 5 errors on the same play.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cannonball
    replied
    Rod, your exposure to the softball world is extremely limited. The game is a lot different as well. While I won't address all of the things you posted, I'll address the screen shot though I do not know how the entire play unfolded. You mention that you were shocked at that the commentators did not realize that the cuts were wrong. Rod, it is you that does not know the game of softball. With a ball in the corner, The 1B is where she should be per a potential throw to the plate. The 2B is probably where she was coached to be given that one runner has already rounded 2b. Most college softball diamonds are 200' down the lines and so, cutoffs and positioning are not the same as with baseball. That 2B would be asked to be the first cut on a throw to 2B and then relay the throw to 3B or run the ball in. She would not be running out too far to the short corner. The OF is expected to have a great arm in the programs you mention. The SS is moving to a position to cut the ball if the throw is over the 2B head. Having not seen the play, I'd suspect that the throw should go to 1B.

    Rod, most programs in my area have 2 and 3 teams for any given age bracket. They have their own practice facility that you would not believe. It has 6 cages, a 10 station pitching area in one corner of the building. It has two fielding areas where one is large enough to do full infield. They have a weight room and have a certified trainer. This program also has a second building for the younger ages. They have 5 cages.

    Ok, so I'll comment on one more of your comments. You mention your HS and the JV team. We have roughly 35 players come out each year. That is more than enough to field two powerful teams. Our area will put several players into college ball and at various levels. There are 3 seniors on this year's team. All 3 are playing in college next year and have signed their NLIs. 100% of our seniors from last year also are playing in college. One school like the one I coach at or the one you mention is not representative of the sport.

    I'll wrap up by saying that you do not know the sport and so, in viewing, you think that it is being coached poorly. I have coached both baseball and softball at very high levels. Typically, when a baseball coach takes over a softball program, you see a downward spiral until they come to the recognition that the sports are different. (Note, hitting imo is the same but we don't slap.)

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  • JettSixty
    replied
    Just because softball sucks on LI (and it does, at least it did when my daughter played ASA)) doesn’t mean it sucks. Using your experiences there as your base for softball is ignorant and amusing. But it’s not as amusing as using the UCLA softball program as an example that softball sucks.That’s extremely ignorant, uninformed and amusing. It proves you know less than next to nothing about softball. You probably should stay away from subjects you know absolutely nothing about. To prove baseball sucks I’m going to find a video of Ozzie Smith making an error.
    Last edited by JettSixty; 12-12-2018, 08:40 AM.

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  • rodk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cannonball View Post

    Rod, do you have a daughter playing or has played?
    No, but like the insurance pitch for Farmers, I have seen a thing or five up close,

    1. The softball JV team at my son's school had a left handed shortstop. Asked, the coach said, "I play the cards I'm dealt." (Last year, there was a girl on the JV baseball team.)

    2. A baseball travel teammate has an older sister who plays HS softball. The parents insisted she was pitching at 85 mph -- not the reaction time equivalent of an 85 mph pitch from 60.5 feet, but actual 85 mph, which would have been 10% faster than the world record held by a 25 year old professional player, and at least 20% faster than any college pitcher I saw, and they maintained that view even after they saw my kid actually pitch 85 mph and after they saw their son pitch at about 80 mph. In all the years she played, no one knew the difference, no one bothered to explain it to the parents, or not everyone was playing with a full deck. IDK.

    3. We live on Long Island (4 million people, NYC area has 30 million). We attend top commercial venues at Baseball Heaven and Diamond Nation (Jenny Finch Academy). Each of these picks out a few weekends a year for softball. Diamond Nation has 4 this year. https://jack-cust-baseball.ezleagues...es.aspx?type=t Baseball goes the rest of the year including weekdays and is oversubscribed with some tournaments drawing 150 teams. BBH has 6 tournaments. https://www.baseballheavenli.com/fastpitch-tournaments/ Baseball goes the rest of the year, sometimes on weeknights. As for league play, the only Long Island league that offered softball folded. In the summer of 2017, the league had only six teams in each two year bracket. None were obviously associated with academies, suggesting daddy or mommy coach. Even Utrip doesn't stop by. There were zero archived softball tournaments for New York City in 2018. About half the events in all of New York State were in Syracuse.

    4. Our Little League has an 8u and 10u division. No one older is invited to play.

    5. My son attends a baseball/softball training center. There are significant numbers of 12u and 13u, but not many older than that.

    My point is that participation is low, and teams and team events are sparsely run and not too well attended. If softball schedules have any comparability to baseball, conflicts limit scouting at school games. Camps and combines would seem to be a much more plausible way for the dads to get their kids seen than in baseball, and that it offers a better opportunity given the presence of more scholarship money and relatively few participants. Some may even find travel teams dispensable if they are not sufficiently matched to the talent level of your daughters.

    Have you seen any of these national tournaments? PG?
    Baseball yes, softball, no. I am aware of giant softball events in Chattanooga, Indianapolis, Orlando, Syracuse, and other locations, but I do not know the magnitude of them. We have not seen the commercial events at DN or BBH because the baseball and softball schedules are staggered. We have been to the mass baseball events with hundreds of teams at PG in several locations.

    I did watch quite a bit of the WCWS and the super-regionals and regionals, and, in candor, was surprised by poor play. In one sequence, Ole Miss lost a super regional game when it made 5 physical and/or mental errors on the same play in the tenth inning vs UCLA: a misjudged a pop to right was followed by a misjudged carom off the short fence and then resulted in two runs when the weak throw back to the infield yielded a botched cutoff because of daydreaming by both the first and second basemen. Then I was surprised that the announcing team seemed to have no idea how poor the execution was.

    Here's a screen grab. Why are the first and second basemen cemented to their positions on a throw in from the outfield (which bounced before it hit the skin) after it was rattling in the corner?

    UCLA vs Ole Miss game 1.jpg

    Regarding the financial aspect, and to be quick, my daughter did quite well wrt financial support both academic and athletic as do many players. She played with a legendary pitcher. They did amazing stuff. The quality of play that my daughter's team played at was exceptional.
    This is a marvelous result. But she had you as her edge. You have the skill to coach her and inside information from being in the business of coaching. I was addressing the dads who don't know what you do and asking for advice as noobs.
    Last edited by rodk; 12-12-2018, 09:03 AM.

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  • FP26
    replied
    http://www.espn.com/espnw/video/24123447/

    My DD is a freshman in college and is playing softball. I have coached travel ball now going on 8 years and coached rec prior to that. There is some very good quality softball out there, but there is also some very poor softball. No different than baseball, football, basketball, or other sport. As a person that played baseball for years, I can honestly say there are aspects of softball that I actually prefer. I would watch a high level college softball game before watching a professional baseball game in many cases. But like anything else, it is a matter of personal preference. There will always be haters.
    Last edited by FP26; 12-11-2018, 04:19 PM.

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  • Cannonball
    replied
    Originally posted by rodk View Post
    When the issue is "worth it" I'd like to think it goes without saying that the cost of getting a kid a baseball scholarship is going to approximate its monetary value in most cases. The top schools don't give 100% to anyone, and while partial packages of $20k and $30k a year are nice, chances are many of those kids would have chosen subsidized state u's if they didn't have baseball, so the out of pocket is going to be more or less the same.

    I always figured the money was an investment in my son's self-esteem through baseball. He has the talent from God, and it is there to be exploited, and God knows that if I frustrate his dreams as a teenager by being a cheapskate, it is trouble down the road, especially when it is time to put me in the old folks home or to pull the plug.

    So picking out camps, travel teams, gear, etc, without going into bankruptcy is and has to be a series of compromises and cases laid out. A $1k camp prolly is useless, but you will bargain it down with your son to 3 $200 camps that look as good on paper, just as you will bargain down his $200 wood bat to a custom made one from a local dealer or distributor, and so on.

    This is prolly not the right spot for this comment, but here goes: For Dads doing the same with your daughters and softball, it occurs to me that camps are much more critical to the experience.

    I watched a lot of that WCWS, and it was terrible. The level of play was awful. That is likely because so few participate and for them, there is much less league play and fewer tournaments, and I expect fewer professional coaches and more dad coaches. I don't think PG or any of the big purveyors have anything for girls.

    Meanwhile, there are, I believe, more scholarships for softball than for baseball, and I think softball is more likely to offer a bigger cut to the right players. So Dads should be prepared to open their wallets a little deeper for their daughters in terms of camp experience. It may be a much better option than travel teams.
    Rod, do you have a daughter playing or has played? So few play? Have you seen any of these national tournaments? PG? Softball has its own path to showcases and big time recruiting events. Rod, I typed a huge response but have deleted it. You are way off with regards to softball. Most here know I spend over a decade coaching TB for my daughter, that I resigned my HS baseball job to support her and then coach her is high school and that I am currently a HS softball coach. Most know that my daughter is now coaching and has coached at the "Gold" level for five years.

    Regarding the financial aspect, and to be quick, my daughter did quite well wrt financial support both academic and athletic as do many players. She played with a legendary pitcher. They did amazing stuff. The quality of play that my daughter's team played at was exceptional.

    Leave a comment:


  • JettSixty
    replied
    My daughter is thirty now. I haven’t watched the WCWS for a few years. Therefore I can’t comment on last year or so. I never thought the quality was bad in the past. I was always impressed with the quality of play at NCAA regionals. It does not mean it’s easy for a girl to get a D1 or D2 scholarship.

    There are plenty of PG like events for girls. Softball wrote the model for baseball recruiting. In fact, a book on softball recruiting written in the late 90’s by Cathy Aradi would be very applicable to baseball recruiting today.

    Our high school was dominant in boys and girls sports. It sent a lot of both to college sports. The one difference was there were less female studettes. While boys were encouraged to focus on a sport and absolutely not play more than two the girls were encouraged to play three.

    D1 softball has twelve scholarships. A softball team doesn’t need a pitching staff. They typically have their two regular pitchers and a pitcher in waiting. The rosters are usually about twenty players. Pitchers usually receive full scholarships. The same goes for the top up the middle recruits. My daughter was a “like to have” versus a “have to have” D1 prospect at her college. But it was a “have to have” for her academically. She was a fourth outfielder in a power conference for four years. She received 25%. She also received a 50% academic ride. She was a top 20% of her high school class and graduated from college PBK.

    D2 receives 7.2 in athletic money. Don’t believe for a second just because a girl plays high school softball she’s going to play college softball. It isn’t that easy. Although, our powerhouse high school (54-2 in conference play, about 94-16 overall, four conference titles, two district titles) sent six girls D1 two D2 and three D3 from my daughter’s junior year roster. The team was so strong a couple of girls were sitting at the same time they were receiving college offers playing for their travel team. My daughter and some other high school teammates may be one of the few whose high school team was better than her travel team due to the pitcher. Throw in 26-1-1 in middle school and she and her five classmates had a nice six year run.
    Last edited by JettSixty; 12-11-2018, 10:19 AM.

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  • rodk
    replied
    When the issue is "worth it" I'd like to think it goes without saying that the cost of getting a kid a baseball scholarship is going to approximate its monetary value in most cases. The top schools don't give 100% to anyone, and while partial packages of $20k and $30k a year are nice, chances are many of those kids would have chosen subsidized state u's if they didn't have baseball, so the out of pocket is going to be more or less the same.

    I always figured the money was an investment in my son's self-esteem through baseball. He has the talent from God, and it is there to be exploited, and God knows that if I frustrate his dreams as a teenager by being a cheapskate, it is trouble down the road, especially when it is time to put me in the old folks home or to pull the plug.

    So picking out camps, travel teams, gear, etc, without going into bankruptcy is and has to be a series of compromises and cases laid out. A $1k camp prolly is useless, but you will bargain it down with your son to 3 $200 camps that look as good on paper, just as you will bargain down his $200 wood bat to a custom made one from a local dealer or distributor, and so on.

    This is prolly not the right spot for this comment, but here goes: For Dads doing the same with your daughters and softball, it occurs to me that camps are much more critical to the experience.

    I watched a lot of that WCWS, and it was terrible. The level of play was awful. That is likely because so few participate and for them, there is much less league play and fewer tournaments, and I expect fewer professional coaches and more dad coaches. I don't think PG or any of the big purveyors have anything for girls.

    Meanwhile, there are, I believe, more scholarships for softball than for baseball, and I think softball is more likely to offer a bigger cut to the right players. So Dads should be prepared to open their wallets a little deeper for their daughters in terms of camp experience. It may be a much better option than travel teams.
    Last edited by rodk; 12-10-2018, 12:26 PM.

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  • pthawaii
    replied
    The more stories we can have posted, the more context we have from which to choose a good fit. What's the difference between a "prospect" camp and a regular old camp that they advertise for? Is prospect camp by invitation only? And if so, what is the best way to get invited, play summer tournaments and showcases?

    Leave a comment:


  • JettSixty
    replied
    Originally posted by pthawaii View Post

    Good post. I'd love to hear more real time experiences from their summer on how they got their kid into a college program. Even better, which camps, which showcases and how effective you felt it was to attend.
    Keep in mind what might be a good path for one player can be the wrong path for another. You want your kid at the right events for his skill set and interest (in him) level. The ideal world is playing for a team where the coach sells the player to the right college programs. These programs are usually placing kids in D1 programs.

    However, one of my son’s high school teammates did find a travel team that focused on D3 prospects with colleges in the region. That summer the coach received an offer from a HA D3. He took his top three academic players, including son’s HS teammate with him. This coach did take his team to the WWBA WS in GA. They played mostly on back fields against other inferior (relative to WWBA WS) teams. That was after getting clubbed to death by good teams and being eliminated. The only saw scouts at their first game who were there to gun the stud pitchers on the opposing team.

    The only camps worth attending are prospect camps. The rest are fundraisers for the spring trip. The head coach gives a welcome speech then leaves.

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  • pthawaii
    replied
    Originally posted by rodk View Post
    The plan that worked for my son was having a well known travel coach who was a strong advocate for him. The team cost a lot for membership and we spent a lot of money on hotels and airfare to play PG and elsewhere, but seeing our coach schmooze scouts for my son and the other kids made it worth while.

    IDK enough about scouting camps to know if it really helps anyone with big dreams of Omaha.

    My guess is that camps can put some kids on the radar for top schools and line them up decently for D2 and other categories. A number of kids on my son's travel team got better financial packages at less prestigious academic colleges who play D2 -- the kind of colleges that really can't afford to scout on the road too much -- seemingly based on camps.

    So if the issue is trying to get the biggest scholarship from wherever you can, camps may not be a bad gamble.

    But your kid will be better off if he is with the right travel team to begin with.
    Good post. I'd love to hear more real time experiences from their summer on how they got their kid into a college program. Even better, which camps, which showcases and how effective you felt it was to attend.

    Leave a comment:


  • rodk
    replied
    The plan that worked for my son was having a well known travel coach who was a strong advocate for him. The team cost a lot for membership and we spent a lot of money on hotels and airfare to play PG and elsewhere, but seeing our coach schmooze scouts for my son and the other kids made it worth while.

    IDK enough about scouting camps to know if it really helps anyone with big dreams of Omaha.

    My guess is that camps can put some kids on the radar for top schools and line them up decently for D2 and other categories. A number of kids on my son's travel team got better financial packages at less prestigious academic colleges who play D2 -- the kind of colleges that really can't afford to scout on the road too much -- seemingly based on camps.

    So if the issue is trying to get the biggest scholarship from wherever you can, camps may not be a bad gamble.

    But your kid will be better off if he is with the right travel team to begin with.

    Leave a comment:

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