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Deep barrel turn / turn behind the turn

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  • Deep barrel turn / turn behind the turn

    Anyone have any good drills for a deep barrel turn aka the turn behind the turn? Was watching slow motion of my sons swing today and saw that when he drops elbow into slot and starts the swing, he is not getting his hands and barrel turned over (top hand not getting palm up). He is more closer to 45 degrees than parallel which is causing him to come in a little steeper than ideal and not completely behind the ball and long in the zone. Looking for some drills to get him closer to parallel with his hands.
    Last edited by Colonel21; 09-02-2019, 02:48 PM.

  • #2
    DEE8D806-0278-493E-A646-EE96659121EC.jpeg

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    • #3
      Try having him start moving the barrel w/ the drop of the rear elbow (if that makes sense). Many young developing hitters disconnect their rear elbow from their symmetry of the "triangle" or "box" or whatever else you've heard the barrel/bat, upper arm, forearm, wrists, and hands "assembly" for no better term.

      We make sure the a hitter's rear elbow is "up" in his stance, and some take it as far as having the "elbow up at toe touch"...but from there, we never get into why that is important.

      But if you watch most MLB hitters' rear elbow and bats/barrels...you should see that most will show some sort of barrel movement...when the rear elbow starts to drop.

      Yes, I'm sure you can find some MLB hitters whose bats/barrels don't move in exact unison with their rear elbow...but I think that's the minority, and not the majority. At least that's MO...OMMV.
      In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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      • #4
        I feel like kids get slack in their top hand wrist, and don’t elevate the lead arm all the way into the swing plane. Basically lose control of the bat, then drag out the slop and finish the swing.

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        • #5
          Great timing by Baseball Rebellion. They just posted an article and 5 training videos on this today. Time to work!

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          • #6
            Colonel, if you're gonna use BR, then take a look at Chas' video "The Turn Behind The Turn"...and look at how when he lowers the rear elbow he starts inadvertently starts the barrel moving or turning.

            This is the connection or movement I was trying to convey above, and how some kids will drop, or slam their rear elbow down...but the bat/barrel never moves. I got the impression that was what your son was doing (dropping the elbow w/o the barrel moving) when you wrote this...
            Originally posted by Colonel21
            Was watching slow motion of my sons swing today and saw that when he drops elbow into slot and starts the swing, he is not getting his hands and barrel turned over (top hand not getting palm up).
            Hope that now makes a little more sense in what I was trying to communicate.
            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
              Colonel, if you're gonna use BR, then take a look at Chas' video "The Turn Behind The Turn"...and look at how when he lowers the rear elbow he starts inadvertently starts the barrel moving or turning.

              This is the connection or movement I was trying to convey above, and how some kids will drop, or slam their rear elbow down...but the bat/barrel never moves. I got the impression that was what your son was doing (dropping the elbow w/o the barrel moving) when you wrote this...

              Hope that now makes a little more sense in what I was trying to communicate.
              Definitely familiar with that video! My son is dropping the barrel/turning over the hands when he is dropping the back elbow into slot, but not as much as he needs to to get behind the ball early/deep turn. He is essentially not completing the full move with wrists.

              I added a line on the Lindor picture that kind of demonstrates the angle of his hands and barrel at that point in time. Like Tiger Woods likes to say that he is caught between swings. Seems like a good term for my son. He has all the mechanics of a rotational swing, but he is just not getting that complete barrel turn behind him.

              Capture.JPG

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Colonel21 View Post

                Definitely familiar with that video! My son is dropping the barrel/turning over the hands when he is dropping the back elbow into slot, but not as much as he needs to to get behind the ball early/deep turn. He is essentially not completing the full move with wrists.

                I added a line on the Lindor picture that kind of demonstrates the angle of his hands and barrel at that point in time. Like Tiger Woods likes to say that he is caught between swings. Seems like a good term for my son. He has all the mechanics of a rotational swing, but he is just not getting that complete barrel turn behind him.

                Capture.JPG
                Have him practice swinging down with just the top hand and turning the hand inward so the bat goes from the up position and then look like it comes into the zone and swing through. When done properly, the bat should be trying to attack the catcher behind him and then swing through out to the pitcher.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Modal94 View Post

                  Have him practice swinging down with just the top hand and turning the hand inward so the bat goes from the up position and then look like it comes into the zone and swing through. When done properly, the bat should be trying to attack the catcher behind him and then swing through out to the pitcher.
                  Isolating that top hand is where we are headed. Right now he has started practicing that one handed transition/move with a small dumbbell. Just something easy he can do in the house while standing around watching tv or in his room.

                  Definitely going to do something similar to what you have mentioned in the next steps. I am going to tell him to try to get catcher's interference on every swing. LOL.

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                  • #10
                    barrel is launched rearward, I simply mean the opposite of 'toward the ball'.....and it is sent the opposite direction than that of how you are holding it. Assuming you have a hand pivot point....

                    If the barrel is tipped to the opposite field....rearward is 180 degrees around the hand pivot point in the reverse from that tip. Turn the barrel away from the SS/2B.

                    If it is tipped to the pitcher....rearward is 180 degrees around the hand pivot point in the reverse from that tip....directly toward the catcher as if you might hit him squarely on top of the head. (if the bat reached that far)

                    If it is tipped behind the head....rearward is 180 degrees around the hand pivot point in the opposite direction.....again....toward the catcher....a little different angle than that of Manny.....you might hit the catcher in the side of the head. (if the bat reached that far)

                    Rearward is creating an arc around the hand pivot point that initially goes away from the ball....not toward the ball.....until the barrel completes the arc.

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                    • #11
                      Launching the barrel rearward is an absolute MUST in order to reach the high level swing. There is no other way.

                      First and foremost, the barrel must be launched by forearm rotation. When the forearms rotate, they applying a force 'into' the handle and cause it to rotate about the hands. I call the resulting hand action a swivel. The swivel is found in every high level hitter. The opposite, that is found in amateurs is the 'hammer'. If you put your elbow on a table and lift the hand so the forearm is vertical, and then rotate the two forearm bones about each other, you are rotating your forearms.....and your hand swivels. This concept, when done properly, REMOVES THE ARMS from the swing. By removing the arms, I mean the swinging of the arms, the pulling of the arms and the pushing of the arms. The arms do not act independently....other than when the forearms rotate. It also eliminates the pushing of the hands at/through contact....which is a hammering motion. And by hammering, I'm referring to exactly what it says....the action you would use to hammer a nail. Hammering action by the hands/forearms will never lead to the high level pattern. They are mutually exclusive.

                      Here is a clip of forearm rotation.

                      I'll save you a lot of time.


                      Keep your weight back....do not let it get to the front foot.
                      Keep your rear forearm vertical....as vertical as you can....a pinched bicep.
                      Launch the barrel rearward by swiveling your top hand.
                      Simutaneous pronation of the bottom hand offers a huge assist.
                      Last edited by rdbass; 09-04-2019, 06:22 AM.

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                      • #12
                        rd -great stuff! thanks for posting!

                        I really don't like some of BR's posts/drills. The approach shown in their video -standing with your front foot against a wall to "force deep barrel turn" is a bit convoluted. Not sure why someone wants to resurrect a new version of the "fence drill" -how can you actually practice this in a live ball situation? IME, these types of drills don't translate well to live BP.

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                        • #13
                          rd,

                          I get that the bat starts its rotation around the forearm (perpendicular to the forearm). I get the early bat speed. The thing that has always hung me up is that the bat is not perpendicular to the rear forearm at contact. How, when and what starts the transition away from rotation around the rear forearm to the bat path into the ball? Not sure if that makes sense. What are the next two frames in your last two GIFS.

                          Thanks

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                          • #14

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                            • #15
                              Last edited by Colonel21; 09-04-2019, 02:06 PM.

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