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  • #16
    Originally posted by Scrub View Post

    The opposite was true for me once, Skip. My CF threw a balloon far too high over the cut's head. It ended up landing on time and nailing the runner at home. The bleachers erupted with "attaboy's." I, on the other hand, took the kid aside and corrected the mistake. The player's mother saw me correcting him rather than high-fiving him. Then I got an earful from the mom.

    [Side note: my son was playing CF, so the mom was my wife. She thought I should let him "have his moment." I thought he should learn to play the right way. Shrug.]
    This is a wonderful discussion, IMO. In this instance do you coach it the right way in the moment or later? I think not teaching it at all is out of the question. In the moment it's the most learnable because he can maybe remember the actual balloon. The next day that balloon in his mind is a frozen rope. I think the right approach is somewhere in-between. I'd let him have his moment, but coach him about the throw in the next inning or after the game. But it can definitely be a tough call.

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    • #17
      To give even more clarity, we teach the OF to throw +2 if he fields it in front of him. So runner on 2b then throw home (+2 bases). This changes if the ball is past him in which case it's typically +3 as the double is likely assured. But this is where the MIF are getting in position.

      There is zero reason for an OF, especially a CF to throw the ball to 2b on a hit to him with a man on 2nd. The only way you get the out at 2b is if the batter and his 1b coach read a throw to home and send him, which is why the 1b is cutting the ball so he can cut it and throw it to 2nd if the out is not there at home.

      Aksing the CF to throw to a MIF ensures you get no out at home and no out at 2b. For a lower level team it may be the best percentage play if there's a super high liklihood of the throw allowing the batter to get to 2nd safely and there be no outs. But that is short sighted. Teach the kids the right way to play and it will work out in the end. They may give up bases early, but will execute later. What this coach is teaching in my opnion is

      1. We want to win 11u games so I'll teach poor baseball strategy
      2. I don't care if my kids get yelled at when they get to the HS team because i"ll have a lot of 11u trophies.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post
        Coaching 101 Forum -

        ... so aimed to be catchable high, but not right at their chest.....
        What do you mean- where "should" the throw be?
        Major Figure

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        • #19
          Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post
          Coaching 101 Forum -

          I am hoping you can help me see some recent coaches instructions in a positive light.

          My 11 year old likes playing centerfield, but is still learning the position. He was yelled at in practice Monday for not hitting the cutoff man on throws back to the infield. Part of it was deserved as he was throwing in to the pitcher. But the loudest scolding of the day occurred on a play with a runner about to round third, when my son threw on a one hop to home. To me, it looked like a well placed throw that might have led to a tag at home and an out. The coach yelled at him for missing his cutoff man.

          I am confused about the coaching. I thought the throws from the outfield in are supposed to allow the cutoff man to have the option of "cutting off" the throw - so aimed to be catchable high, but not right at their chest. Can you help me understand better?

          I am also confused by what is supposed to happen once the ball makes it to the cutoff. On this team, the kids in the infield aren't coached to do anything with the ball once they get it. No practice, yet, on having a quick release throw to another base for the out, so they must not be thinking of this as a relay. So it seems like getting it to the cutoff is supposed to hold the runners and stop the play?

          Thanks for your help. We watch, perhaps, a bit too much MLB. So many of the highlight plays we are awed by are well thrown balls from the outfield that gets the runner at home. It is quite possible that we have an incorrect understanding of what this play is supposed to look like at 12U.
          One thing is for sure- you need to stop coming to practices. I could rip apart almost all of your comments and some of the others from posters as well. The real issue is not cutoffs, it's not the coach, and it's not X. And you're not here to "learn" either.
          Major Figure

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by omg View Post

            One thing is for sure- you need to stop coming to practices. I could rip apart almost all of your comments and some of the others from posters as well. The real issue is not cutoffs, it's not the coach, and it's not X. And you're not here to "learn" either.
            Do the opposite of whatever this guy suggests. A parent trying to learn more about the sport, about coaching and about the approach an adult coach has with their kids is 100% the right thing to do.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by andre8 View Post
              ....What this coach is teaching in my opnion is

              1. We want to win 11u games so I'll teach poor baseball strategy
              2. I don't care if my kids get yelled at when they get to the HS team because i"ll have a lot of 11u trophies.
              Okay, take this one for example: The premise is that 11u is less important than HS and that it is somehow bad to want to win at 11u (but okay at HS). As for the poor baseball strategy there will be many differences in strategy between 11u and HS, there will even be different strategies between various leagues in HS, and so on.

              So this is just one example. When Johnny HS guy who's played a little (probably very little) and knows a few things (dangerous territory) starts giving you advice then, you know, he might be right about some things but he might miss the big picture.

              Major Figure

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by omg View Post
                One thing is for sure- you need to stop coming to practices. I could rip apart almost all of your comments and some of the others from posters as well. The real issue is not cutoffs, it's not the coach, and it's not X. And you're not here to "learn" either.
                omg, what's wrong with someone or anyone wanting to learn something? For as long as I've been here, I was under the impression that this forum was for folks to learn how coaches do things in whatever various topics that are talked about...but if you're under the impression that people aren't 'here to 'learn" either', than what should they be here for?

                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                  omg, what's wrong with someone or anyone wanting to learn something? For as long as I've been here, I was under the impression that this forum was for folks to learn how coaches do things in whatever various topics that are talked about...but if you're under the impression that people aren't 'here to 'learn" either', than what should they be here for?
                  Bmom is feigning the learning part and merely wants to vent about x getting yelled at. She asks for "help" and supposedly asks to see the coach's "instructions in a positive light". She then goes on to criticize (subtly, she thinks) the coach numerous times and then pontificates that x will hang with LL and the well meaning coaches for the time being. Yeah, she gives the usual back handed compliment to the coach and the usual accompanying criticism of x which always go hand in hand with the gotcha stuff a parent can contrive over a five minute episode in practice.

                  It's just weak stuff. Garden variety.
                  Major Figure

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by omg View Post

                    Bmom is feigning the learning part and merely wants to vent about x getting yelled at. She asks for "help" and supposedly asks to see the coach's "instructions in a positive light". She then goes on to criticize (subtly, she thinks) the coach numerous times and then pontificates that x will hang with LL and the well meaning coaches for the time being. Yeah, she gives the usual back handed compliment to the coach and the usual accompanying criticism of x which always go hand in hand with the gotcha stuff a parent can contrive over a five minute episode in practice.

                    It's just weak stuff. Garden variety.
                    But she's right. the coach is not only teaching crappy baseball, but is doing it in a crappy way.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by omg View Post

                      Okay, take this one for example: The premise is that 11u is less important than HS and that it is somehow bad to want to win at 11u (but okay at HS). As for the poor baseball strategy there will be many differences in strategy between 11u and HS, there will even be different strategies between various leagues in HS, and so on.

                      So this is just one example. When Johnny HS guy who's played a little (probably very little) and knows a few things (dangerous territory) starts giving you advice then, you know, he might be right about some things but he might miss the big picture.
                      No. 11u is just as important which is why they should be teaching at 11u the same things that they should be executing in HS. I agree that if this is low level 11u baseball, making a cutoff to the wrong man can be strategically advantageous. I personally think that teaching kids to play the optimum way and developing them as players is more important than winning some 11u games. 8u kids can and do learn to properly throw balls from the outfield. If you coach a team that gets strategic advantage from playing another way it's because you're a bad coach who is unable to get them to execute the proper way. It's a shortcut to win without coaching properly.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by omg View Post

                        Bmom is feigning the learning part and merely wants to vent about x getting yelled at. She asks for "help" and supposedly asks to see the coach's "instructions in a positive light". She then goes on to criticize (subtly, she thinks) the coach numerous times and then pontificates that x will hang with LL and the well meaning coaches for the time being. Yeah, she gives the usual back handed compliment to the coach and the usual accompanying criticism of x which always go hand in hand with the gotcha stuff a parent can contrive over a five minute episode in practice.

                        It's just weak stuff. Garden variety.
                        Thanks omg, while I disagree with your interpretation of the OP, I do respect your opinion wrt it. That said, I hope we can move forward with the thread wrt cutoff strategies discussions...and move past any negative takes on the coach(es) in question, the members sharing their thoughts within it so far, and the OPs original intentions...whether actually intended or just perceived.
                        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by omg View Post

                          Bmom is feigning the learning part and merely wants to vent about x getting yelled at. She asks for "help" and supposedly asks to see the coach's "instructions in a positive light". She then goes on to criticize (subtly, she thinks) the coach numerous times and then pontificates that x will hang with LL and the well meaning coaches for the time being. Yeah, she gives the usual back handed compliment to the coach and the usual accompanying criticism of x which always go hand in hand with the gotcha stuff a parent can contrive over a five minute episode in practice.

                          It's just weak stuff. Garden variety.
                          I just finished going through 10 years of rec baseball. Whatever triggered you - I think it's causing you to miss the bigger picture of confusion and bad long-term habit creation caused by coaches yelling at kids who try to make plays. One of the worse patterns I see in rec ball goes like this:

                          A kid really wants to make an out. They do something that the coach considers risky, such as trying really hard as an outfielder to run for the ball and missing it rather then letting the ball bounce once or twice to get to them (so ball rolls past them by 10-15 feet). Or they make a throw from right field directly from RF to 3rd or home to try to get the guy out. Or the 9yr old third baseman tries to throw a bullet to the 1st baseman to get out a fast runner. I have heard coaches yell at kids for any/all of these things at age 8, 9, 10, 11, etc. And guess what?

                          As a coach of 11-12 year-olds I had to try to undo the damage from years of this kind of coaching. Because what have the kids learned? They have learned to not try for any play unless it is easy or routine. So fly balls that are relatively easy for a 12-year old to catch if they run in 20 feet just bounce in front of them for a single. Runners round third for home with impunity knowing the throw will never come, etc. It is really hard to coach this out of the kids when you inherent them after years of being yelled at for trying to make a difficult play.

                          As a coach of 11-12 year olds who have played baseball for a few years, I LOVE kids who try to make difficult outs and I will never get upset with them. I might try to teach them the best times to go for it, and the best times to play it safe when doing a section of practice on a specific situation - but no way do I want to critique the kids over and over until they play scared and therefore play safe.

                          What happens at the younger ages DOES matter. Not what stats they produce - but what habits they develop. And I, for one, want to see kids develop habits of going for it.

                          So, for example - if a kid fields the ball in shallow right - I coached that you do NOT try to lob the ball to a cut 25 feet away (which I saw other coaches teach). I taught them to field the ball in a way that to immediately set their feet for a throw in case there's a shot to nail a runner and if you hear your teammates yelling "3" or "4" while you're setting your feet, you let loose.

                          I have seen real extremes of "play it safe" and they do not throw line drive bullets to the cut man. They lob it at the cut man, and then the cut man just slowly walks in to the field to make sure that the runner they could have easily nailed at 3rd doesn't run home.

                          Yes - I know the way you really want to do it is to throw a frozen rope through the cut - but most kids can't do that so a strong second best is to just try to nail the runner as best they can. Because that will help reinforce long-term habits that I personally think are good, in the long-run. Go for it.
                          Last edited by JoeG; 09-05-2019, 09:50 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question! Whatever the reasons that spurred it, I had a question, and I appreciate having a forum to ask it.

                            I enjoy thinking about pedagogy. I generally like sports. Having a kid who is passionate about competing has opened up a new way for me to learn and think about how different skills are taught. I have actually applied some of the ideas I have learned from watching X take lessons, to the way I teach. For instance, In academic teaching, they talk about "scaffolding" asking a series of simpler questions that lead a student to an understanding of a more general abstract idea. I watched during one of X's pitching lessons a brilliant display of scaffolding using drills to teach the pitching motion. It caused some light bulbs to go off for me and I rewrote my lecture for the next day. Those are always fun "cross-disciplinary" moments.

                            OMG-
                            I hope calling me out helped you have a better day.





                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JoeG View Post

                              I just finished going through 10 years of rec baseball. Whatever triggered you - I think it's causing you to miss the bigger picture of confusion and bad long-term habit creation caused by coaches yelling at kids who try to make plays. One of the worse patterns I see in rec ball goes like this:

                              A kid really wants to make an out. They do something that the coach considers risky, such as trying really hard as an outfielder to run for the ball and missing it rather then letting the ball bounce once or twice to get to them (so ball rolls past them by 10-15 feet). Or they make a throw from right field directly from RF to 3rd or home to try to get the guy out. Or the 9yr old third baseman tries to throw a bullet to the 1st baseman to get out a fast runner. I have heard coaches yell at kids for any/all of these things at age 8, 9, 10, 11, etc. And guess what?

                              As a coach of 11-12 year-olds I had to try to undo the damage from years of this kind of coaching. Because what have the kids learned? They have learned to not try for any play unless it is easy or routine. So fly balls that are relatively easy for a 12-year old to catch if they run in 20 feet just bounce in front of them for a single. Runners round third for home with impunity knowing the throw will never come, etc. It is really hard to coach this out of the kids when you inherent them after years of being yelled at for trying to make a difficult play.

                              As a coach of 11-12 year olds who have played baseball for a few years, I LOVE kids who try to make difficult outs and I will never get upset with them. I might try to teach them the best times to go for it, and the best times to play it safe when doing a section of practice on a specific situation - but no way do I want to critique the kids over and over until they play scared and therefore play safe.

                              What happens at the younger ages DOES matter. Not what stats they produce - but what habits they develop. And I, for one, want to see kids develop habits of going for it.

                              So, for example - if a kid fields the ball in shallow right - I coached that you do NOT try to lob the ball to a cut 25 feet away (which I saw other coaches teach). I taught them to field the ball in a way that to immediately set their feet for a throw in case there's a shot to nail a runner and if you hear your teammates yelling "3" or "4" while you're setting your feet, you let loose.

                              I have seen real extremes of "play it safe" and they do not throw line drive bullets to the cut man. They lob it at the cut man, and then the cut man just slowly walks in to the field to make sure that the runner they could have easily nailed at 3rd doesn't run home.

                              Yes - I know the way you really want to do it is to throw a frozen rope through the cut - but most kids can't do that so a strong second best is to just try to nail the runner as best they can. Because that will help reinforce long-term habits that I personally think are good, in the long-run. Go for it.
                              This x1000

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JoeG View Post

                                I just finished going through 10 years of rec baseball. Whatever triggered you - I think it's causing you to miss the bigger picture of confusion and bad long-term habit creation caused by coaches yelling at kids who try to make plays. One of the worse patterns I see in rec ball goes like this:

                                A kid really wants to make an out. They do something that the coach considers risky, such as trying really hard as an outfielder to run for the ball and missing it rather then letting the ball bounce once or twice to get to them (so ball rolls past them by 10-15 feet). Or they make a throw from right field directly from RF to 3rd or home to try to get the guy out. Or the 9yr old third baseman tries to throw a bullet to the 1st baseman to get out a fast runner. I have heard coaches yell at kids for any/all of these things at age 8, 9, 10, 11, etc. And guess what?

                                As a coach of 11-12 year-olds I had to try to undo the damage from years of this kind of coaching. Because what have the kids learned? They have learned to not try for any play unless it is easy or routine. So fly balls that are relatively easy for a 12-year old to catch if they run in 20 feet just bounce in front of them for a single. Runners round third for home with impunity knowing the throw will never come, etc. It is really hard to coach this out of the kids when you inherent them after years of being yelled at for trying to make a difficult play.

                                As a coach of 11-12 year olds who have played baseball for a few years, I LOVE kids who try to make difficult outs and I will never get upset with them. I might try to teach them the best times to go for it, and the best times to play it safe when doing a section of practice on a specific situation - but no way do I want to critique the kids over and over until they play scared and therefore play safe.

                                What happens at the younger ages DOES matter. Not what stats they produce - but what habits they develop. And I, for one, want to see kids develop habits of going for it.

                                So, for example - if a kid fields the ball in shallow right - I coached that you do NOT try to lob the ball to a cut 25 feet away (which I saw other coaches teach). I taught them to field the ball in a way that to immediately set their feet for a throw in case there's a shot to nail a runner and if you hear your teammates yelling "3" or "4" while you're setting your feet, you let loose.

                                I have seen real extremes of "play it safe" and they do not throw line drive bullets to the cut man. They lob it at the cut man, and then the cut man just slowly walks in to the field to make sure that the runner they could have easily nailed at 3rd doesn't run home.

                                Yes - I know the way you really want to do it is to throw a frozen rope through the cut - but most kids can't do that so a strong second best is to just try to nail the runner as best they can. Because that will help reinforce long-term habits that I personally think are good, in the long-run. Go for it.
                                Joe, that's a great post.

                                I did some similar things when I was coaching 4 sons thru pre-teen rec ball:

                                For example, I'd emphasize to our first baseman that they should react aggressively to groundballs to their right.
                                I wanted them to err on the side of over-aggressiveness.
                                I told them, if it doesn't work out, no problem, our pitcher will be covering first.
                                At the same time, we emphasized to our pitchers to react quickly in the direction of first on groundballs to the right side.
                                (But since they were pre-teens, we didn't yell "get over!")
                                By mid-season, our pitchers were reacting pretty consistently because they knew they might get burned.
                                Of course our fans were perplexed when it didn't work out, lol
                                Now, many years later, coaching HS kids, my team's fans are still perplexed, such as when I run the contact play with r2/r3 and it results in an out at home, lol
                                Heck, my assistants, who played in college, are also perplexed.
                                Many attend. But few understand.



                                Last edited by skipper5; 09-06-2019, 09:08 AM.
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