Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cutoffs and Age Appropriate Strategies

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post

    I learned recently that outfielders, don't back hand balls. As they charge the ball they adjust their path to field glove side, slightly in front, in order to come up throwing. They have way more time to react to the ball then 3rd base or short. Was that the wrong take away?
    No, that is the the correct take away...and for all players when fielding a GB...if as you mention time allows, and they can "circle the ball" as it's sometimes called.

    Just checking in, because it was a super fun thing to practice with my kid and we were going to work on it more this afternoon. He also wants to practice "robs" at the fence, so I was going to look into the technique there. Baseball - fever -> any advice on practicing robs at the fence? Thanks all for your help -> I find the nuance to the game super fun to learn about.
    It is fun working with players (even better if they're your own kids), and learning all of the amazing nuances about the game that are out there.

    As far as any technique to robbing a HR at the fence (which I think you're talking about wrt "robs" at the fence), the only few that take a little learning are:

    1.) Knowing just how far a particular warning track is from the wall, and how many steps you have to it before crashing into it.

    2.) Getting to, and finding the fence with the throwing hand w/o taking your eye off the fly ball enroute.

    3.) In this situation, going up backhand can actually get you elevated higher above the fence, because you can use the throwing hand to lift, pull, or push yourself up higher over the fence.

    3a.) Now that's not to say that you should "circle" around under the ball in flight to get it to your backhand...but what it is saying is that when you're pretty sure the ball is going out and you can't "camp under it" to make the catch...that in this case, you don't necessarily have to run past the backhand "rob" catch...just to try catch to it on the forehand side over the fence like you'd like to do when fielding a GB..


    Have fun...that brings back lots of memories, because playing the "try to 'rob' home runs" game was one of the games that my brother and myself played the most often (after just playing catch) when it was just the two of us...even though neither of us were OFers. Yeah, it's that fun when INFer play it often....LOL!!
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by omg View Post
      isn't it maddening when, with a runner on 2nd with two outs and the batter hits a soft flare that drops in right center that the ofielder zings it in to home? Even with three coaches yelling two, two, two (catcher still yelling four though)?
      sounds like a coaching problem to me if your OF and C don't know what to do in that situation... I've never found yelling from the dugout to the OF during a play to be effective. YMMV

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by skipper5 View Post

        Keeping it real, the coach.
        Second and third, less than two outs, 270 ft flyball to LC, an all-conf. high school OF with high baseball IQ will make a hopeless throw towards home plate instead of throwing to third base.
        I'm not going to debate this. I live this.
        At some point are there any outfielders (other than college/pros) who are any good at this? Are there teams that develop this?
        Major Figure

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post

          I learned recently that outfielders, don't back hand balls. As they charge the ball they adjust their path to field glove side, slightly in front, in order to come up throwing. They have way more time to react to the ball then 3rd base or short. Was that the wrong take away? Just checking in, because it was a super fun thing to practice with my kid and we were going to work on it more this afternoon. He also wants to practice "robs" at the fence, so I was going to look into the technique there. Baseball - fever -> any advice on practicing robs at the fence? Thanks all for your help -> I find the nuance to the game super fun to learn about.
          Outfielders will or should back hand a ball from time to time- they have to. On such a play it would be a little less likely that, for example, an outfielder would be able to throw out a runner at home.

          For the robs a player can just get close to a fence and someone can throw the ball near the fence. For something a little more realistic a pitching machine (probably Hack Attack) can be used with pretty good accuracy.
          Major Figure

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by omg View Post

            The catcher yells all the way out to the left fielder/centerfielder/right fielder?? No, I don't think so. Anyways, catchers always yell "four, four, four- as soon as the ball is hit" (that was a joke- but they do).
            I think you did not fully read what I wrote. Catcher yells directions, cut man repeats them (because, as you say, can't hear from 150+ feet away).

            And no - I have not experienced catchers yelling "4! 4! 4!" and nothing else - I have been blessed a couple years with coaches who knew a lot about the catcher position so they were able to work one on one with our 2-3 catchers for hours over the course of a couple months and had them yell the right thing in practices where we simulated a variety of real situations. Worked really well, and it was really fun to watch the kids do it right. Yes - the made mistakes early season but by second half of season it was great that the coaches wouldn't say a word while the kids directed it all (starting from catcher), usually correctly, and usually way better than what adult coaches were directing on opposing teams.
            Last edited by JoeG; 09-08-2019, 09:03 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by omg View Post

              Really Joe? An outfielder is not going to "look", they should just wily-nily throw the ball two bases ahead of the runner? Really? Aside from looking, a good fielder learns to have a "clock" in their head factoring in things such as how hard the ball is hit, whether they have to back hand it or go glove side with a spin, etc., etc. Not saying little leaguers would be expected to get this but, you know, isn't it maddening when, with a runner on 2nd with two outs and the batter hits a soft flare that drops in right center that the ofielder zings it in to home? Even with three coaches yelling two, two, two (catcher still yelling four though)?
              What willy nilly? They follow the directions called out to them.

              Look - I actually coached this stuff - and I had the outfielders nailing runners about 1 time/game on average, with no coaches yelling anything during the games. Just the catcher yelling directions, and the cut man repeating them. Wasn't always perfect - but if you coach it they learn. Did take some of my practice time to do this but it was really gratifying to see the kids working together well as a team by the second half of the season.
              Last edited by JoeG; 09-08-2019, 09:03 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                Why wouldn't you just coach the cutoff man to position himself correctly, instead of having the thrower do what he shouldn't be doing...just picking up the ball and winging it towards the plate?

                The main purpose of the cutoff man is to limit the other team from automatically getting additional free bases when they see that the rainbow throw from the OFer all the way to the plate...has no way of being caught by the guy who should be able to "cut" it if thrown correctly...if/when F2 sees the throw is way off line, and/or has no chance of getting the runner at the plate, and starts yelling "CUT!" (just catch and hold it), "CUT2!" (catch and attempt to get the B/R at 2b), or even "CUT1!" if the B/R rounds the bag too far thinking the ball's going through...but is instead caught by the cutoff man.

                Much rather have the run score and the B/R standing at 1B...instead of the run scoring anyway, and because of an improperly thrown ball from the OF...we now have the B/R standing in scoring position once again at 2B. But that might just be me....
                Of course I agree with you that you want to coach the cutoff man to position himself correctly. For whatever reason, in all the coaching I did, I saw the cutoff guy position himself incorrectly a bunch of times. Catcher mostly yelled good instructions, and cutoffs mostly repeated the instructions nice and loud, and outfielders mostly did exactly what they were told when they heard the instructions. Those parts were rarely screwed up. It was the cut man positioning that was screwed up more often than anything else I tried to teach, no matter how often I corrected them.

                I wonder if that's why so often coaches get so mad at the outfielders for throwing nowhere near the cut man . . . the fault being more often the cut man positioning poorly rather than the outfielder misunderstanding or mis-executing the yelled out instructions.

                I agree on the main purpose of the cut man. In my experience working with 9-12 year olds though, the lead runner was often insanely aggressive and seemed to believe there was a 1 in 1000 chance of being thrown out advancing from 1st to 3rd or from 2nd to home. My team proved them wrong over and over. There was a particularly aggressive team that we sometimes threw out 3x-4x in a single game (not just lead runners from outfield, but other base running things as well) but they didn't stop being aggressive. They just had their way with so many other teams that they couldn't conceive of it being anything but dumb luck that they kept getting thrown out.

                Honestly, it's bizarre to me that people are so discouraging of outfielders making the throw home. At the 9-10 year-old level it's not even that far relative to the arm strength of some of the players. It's 100 feet or so. My son nailed 3-5 people/year at 3rd or home from right field playing rec ball and it would have been a lot more if he always played right field (he pitched and played catcher a bunch). He has been throwing people out at home since the age of 7.

                The really most insanely stupid thing I see (sorry if I'm insulting anyone) is when there is literally nobody on base except the runner (who just hit a ball along the first or third base line) who is trying to round third and run home and despite NOBODY else being on base, you see the outfielder (sometimes one with a good arm) not even bother trying to throw home. In that case, I know it's a long shot as it's a long throw, but a 1 in 20 chance is better than a zero chance and there's no consequence for trying and failing. What is the point of throwing to a cut if nobody will be left on base?

                Maybe the reason I see things differently than some of the posters here is that in my son's age division, there were always a few coaches who encourage their base runners to run super aggressively and always assume they would never get nailed by an outfielder. Maybe that is unusual, and is what made it so obviously a fun opportunity for me as a coach to teach how to nail the lead runner (and when it's not worth trying to do that - if they're already 1/3 of the way home, there's no sense making the throw with a runner rounding first).

                Also - keep in mind I'm talking about rec ball. At travel ball level, I don't see the level of insane base runner risk taking that I saw in rec ball, so it wasn't as easy to nail the lead runner.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by bluedawg View Post

                  sounds like a coaching problem to me if your OF and C don't know what to do in that situation... I've never found yelling from the dugout to the OF during a play to be effective. YMMV
                  I'm fortunate to coach motivated intelligent HS players.
                  But if I don't speak up sometimes--loudly verbalize from the dugout to the OF during the play--sometimes they'll attempt the low-percentage throw to get the guy at home plate rather than concede--allow the run to score-- and make a pre-vent throw to a trailing base to keep a runner from moving up.
                  My guess is that their competitiveness overcomes their intelligence. It irks them to concede.
                  So, the way I handle it:
                  1. Thru-out the season I preach "avoid the big inning"
                  2. Then, when/if the catcher yells 4 4 4 in a concede situation, I'll over-rule him by loudly verbalizing.

                  Trust, but verify.

                  Further thoughts:
                  I do NOT share with my OF's the obvious fact that with two outs a runner at second is very difficult to throw out at home plate on a single to the outfield (in 60/90 baseball). I don't share it because I want them aggressive and hungry to make a play. Instead, as the play develops, whenever necessary I'll intervene with a loud verbalization.
                  In my interactions with my teams, I'm always very conscious trying to hit the gas pedal and not the brakes. Whether it's our outfielders, or our baserunners.
                  Then, when necessary, I'll intervene and hit the brakes.

                  Keep It Simple. Avoid imparting Too Much Information. Emphasize the gas pedal. Then jam your foot on the brakes as needed.

                  Another thought:
                  HS players sometimes hesitate to concede runs (in order to avoid the big inning).
                  But it's also true of many HS coaches. It's astonishing how often you see "infield-in" in the first inning.
                  Last edited by skipper5; 09-09-2019, 08:14 AM.
                  Skip

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by omg View Post

                    Really Joe? An outfielder is not going to "look", they should just wily-nily throw the ball two bases ahead of the runner? Really? Aside from looking, a good fielder learns to have a "clock" in their head factoring in things such as how hard the ball is hit, whether they have to back hand it or go glove side with a spin, etc., etc. Not saying little leaguers would be expected to get this but, you know, isn't it maddening when, with a runner on 2nd with two outs and the batter hits a soft flare that drops in right center that the ofielder zings it in to home? Even with three coaches yelling two, two, two (catcher still yelling four though)?
                    Maddening? No, it's fantastic because its EXACTLY where the OF should be throwing. Runner on 2nd, ball in front of OF...throw goes home. It's the IF job to do the rest. the 1b should be positioned to cut the ball if the runner is going to 2nd and there's no play at home.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      We teach this and I believe it works at all ages for nearly all situations.


                      runner on 2nd.

                      Ball in front of the OF, throw home.

                      If ball is to right of SS, 1B is between OF and C
                      If ball is to Left of SS 3B is between OF and C

                      OF throws at home plate on low line. ( not the cutoff man. Cutoff man is supposed to be in the right position)

                      C or Cutoff can decide to cut the ball. If the ball is on-line. Cutoff man is to leave it alone unless told otherwise. If it's off-line he should cut regardless.

                      C says nothing if he wants the ball and it's on line
                      C says Cut X if the ball needs to get cut and thrown to x base
                      C says Cut if it's going to be faster to get to him

                      Nearly any kid sprinting out of the box can be gunned at 2nd if the ball goes from OF to Cut (1b or 3b) and then to 2nd. So there's no need to throw to 2nd.

                      If the ball is behind the OF, then it's a totally different situation and more options open up for the fielders. It's then either a cut 2 or cut 3 situation that the IF are determining to help the OF.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Additional point: OF should almost NEVER throw to a cutoff man. They should almost always throw to a base. The cutoff men should be positioned in a way to cut if needed and the OF should be making a throw that can be cut (low and on line). Throwing to a cutoff man is silly and pointless unless it's a double cut of some kind, but even then it should be in a line to a base. I'm way more often trying to keep kids from throwing to a cutoff man. Especially one in a wrong position. The base doesn't move and that's where the runners are going. Throw to a base, all the time. In a line, low enough to be cut.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Well it sure sounds like pre-teen ball has changed a bunch, and is a whole lot better than from what I remember of it (my oldest turns 30 today). Cuz it sounds like y'all got a bunch of mini Rick Ankiels, and Vlad Guerreros roaming your outfields...that's impressive, and congratulations.

                          But from my way back memories...even if the kids had the arm strength to make those kinds of miracle throws all the way to the plate....most of them either sailed so far up the 3B line or over F2's head to the backstop, that the odds of seeing Bigfoot seated in the stands, were much better than betting that the OFer was going to actually throw a runner out at the plate if he wasn't throwing it through or at least close to the cutoff man.

                          Good to hear the throwing coaching is getting so much better that you don't have to teach proper baseball anymore with those pesky cutoff plays, and positionings. Must also make it much easier on coaching the pitchers, since they don't have to worry about errant throws from these cannon-armed youth OFers, and no longer need to bother be taught to get off the mound to back up the throws from the OF to 3rd, and the plate.
                          In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by mudvnine
                            Well it sure sounds like pre-teen ball has changed a bunch, and is a whole lot better than from what I remember of it (my oldest turns 30 today). Cuz it sounds like y'all got a bunch of mini Rick Ankiels, and Vlad Guerreros roaming your outfields...that's impressive, and congratulations.

                            But from my way back memories...even if the kids had the arm strength to make those kinds of miracle throws all the way to the plate....most of them either sailed so far up the 3B line or over F2's head to the backstop, that the odds of seeing Bigfoot seated in the stands, were much better than betting that the OFer was going to actually throw a runner out at the plate if he wasn't throwing it through or at least close to the cutoff man.
                            Players generally play on different size fields with similarly aged players which makes the game scale so that they can play the same way any other age can play. Additionally, good coaches will teach the skills needed and practice the skills needed. They also ask the kids to attempt the skills that are just out of their reach in order to teach them proper skills even if the results are a lower probability of winning an single individual game.

                            If a kid cannot throw a ball at the target they are aiming for. The solution isn't to ask them to throw to another (incorrect) target, but to work on accurate throwing.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by mudvnine View Post

                              Good to hear the throwing coaching is getting so much better that you don't have to teach proper baseball anymore with those pesky cutoff plays, and positionings. Must also make it much easier on coaching the pitchers, since they don't have to worry about errant throws from these cannon-armed youth OFers, and no longer need to bother be taught to get off the mound to back up the throws from the OF to 3rd, and the plate.

                              I don't know that there's a single person who is suggesting anything remotely close to this, but the opposite. You teach the IF to be in proper spots to cut the throws from the OF. Of course the P is behind the C or 3b. If should be drilled relentlessly to be in the right spots. This can and should be done at the 8u age level. I rarely see it coached at the youth level, particularly because in the early stages it can cost you runs and games when improperly executed. However, once the team gets it and everyone is where they need to be, you can get more outs on defense and prevent bases. Few are willing to take the initial hit for the long term gains.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by andre8 View Post
                                If a kid cannot throw a ball at the target they are aiming for. The solution isn't to ask them to throw to another (incorrect) target, but to work on accurate throwing.
                                Yes, watching kids warm up playing catch from 50', looks the same as when you move them back to 100'...they hit their targets just the same from both distances.

                                Like I said, times, coaching, and players must have changed since I watched a small field ball game it sounds like. Good to hear...no worries.
                                In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X