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Can Argument Be Made That Hitting Instruction Is No Better/ Worse Than Ever?

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  • The Uncoach
    replied
    Hitting instruction today is no better or worse. Technology runs the gammut in use from being a crutch for poor instruction, to being helpful when showing a player where they can make gains. The data makes it easy to keep track of improvements/adjustments, but it isn't an end all/be all. Other technology is designed to improve competition within a player. Lots of the technology at the pro level provides a data grab for the front office to be able to see the changes/abilities of players in their organization, as opposed to just trusting the eyeballs of the former pros coaching in their system.

    As for all the strikeouts...outside of better pitching and the shift, it's the more K's. I would suggest that the increase in K's are on the MLB GM's and what they look for. If you want guys with lower K rates, then draft them, but if you're going to be all hyped up looking for "the body" and turning size into a hitter then MLB will continue to get what they got. It's boring. Give me a team with balance and can win games in many different ways. Right now the Cubs have a huge payroll and 7 guys with 20+ HR on their roster this year. They are failing at situational hitting and have one of the worst, if not the worst, team contact rates in MLB.



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  • dominik
    replied
    Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
    Ripken golfing, mid-thigh, no tilt ripken.homer.thigh.high.zero.tilt.png
    I agree that is a big difference. They used to teach level bat and level shoulders but now they tilt the bat and shoulders down to get there. I start to teach that pretty early too albeit for preteen kids I still teach level shoulders, level bat ( and give them mostly pitches above the hips) because I feel that allows them to control the bathead and turn better and tilt and vertical barrel angle can be taught pretty quickly to a guy who has mastered a level swing.
    Last edited by dominik; 09-20-2019, 06:11 AM.

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  • DoublePlayDepth
    replied
    Technology, for analysis, communication and information has gotten much better for hitting...


    but pitching has gotten the same...

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  • omg
    replied
    Tried to find some Cal with a tilt. Hard to find. Maybe one or two with some tilt. Some with his eyes showing a good launch angle.

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  • skipper5
    replied
    Mike Trout, golfing, with tilt trout.tilt.low.and.in.png

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  • skipper5
    replied
    Ripken golfing, mid-thigh, no tilt ripken.homer.thigh.high.zero.tilt.png

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  • skipper5
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post

    Yeah, golf the low pitch.

    .
    Not just tilting to golf the low pitch.
    Almost all MLB batters are using lateral tilt to adjust to pitches in all heights of the zone, from the belly button (which seems to be the top of the zone nowadays) to the knees.
    Not talking about attack-angle/uppercut.
    shoulder.tilt.for3.diff.pitch.heights.png
    Last edited by skipper5; 09-16-2019, 07:19 AM.

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  • dominik
    replied
    You have to consider that pitching uses the same stuff too. Hitters probably got better but so did defense and pitching. This means we will never see hitting stats get a ton better no matter how good hitting development gets. Maybe hitting can gain the upper hand for aome time but then pitching will adjust and vice versa.

    Usually pitching is a little ahead so every once in a while mlb changes a rule to help hitters (lower mound, shorter fences, smaller zone, juiced ball).

    I don't believe juiced ball is a coincidence, mlb didn't like the lack of offense 2010-14.

    Sure hitting dev in that time also got better with the launch angle in game measurement, swing sensors and weighted bats, but most of it is probably the juiced ball.

    once pitchers adjust to that mlb will help out the hitters again, the next changes like banning the shift and even moving the mound back are tried out in indy ball currently.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by skipper5 View Post

    Strength aside, I think that the main "improvement" to swings since the 80's isn't attack angle. It's the fact that almost all modern batters have mastered "tilt" as the means of adjusting to pitches in the lower 2/3 of the zone.
    Yeah, golf the low pitch.

    It's a good point. I myself do go with much of the modern terminology and emphasis; I've always gone with what's in vogue and I'll do whatever works. Among other things, I like the bottom of the ball emphasis.

    So there was a lot of practicality in people's replies, not much "this is the only way...". Next I'm wondering about today's technologies: the hittrax, rhapsodo,zepps, ground force contraptions, etc... I know in theory these may be helpful. Just wondering how helpful? I wouldn't mind hearing some more practicality from some long time users.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by bluedawg View Post
    And don't forget that players no longer have to juice since they started juicing the ball....
    Ha! I wonder if there was some secret behind the scenes deal like: "Look we know players are still juicing and we don't want them or mlb to be embarrassed so how 'bout we just juice the balls."

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  • skipper5
    replied
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    It's both strength and swing (especially attack angle)
    Strength aside, I think that the main "improvement" to swings since the 80's isn't attack angle. It's the fact that almost all modern batters have mastered "tilt" as the means of adjusting to pitches in the lower 2/3 of the zone.

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  • bluedawg
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post

    I'm talking (I guess this is not attack angle) about the "down and back" which occurs earlier in the swing, before the sweet spot begins to go up. Is that part "measured" and is it consistently different "now" as opposed to '80's?
    there's lots of video to show that many of the great hitters did this -Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle.......It's not a new fad, just a new emphasis on what these guys were doing. Don't forget that strike zones have changed over the years -it's called lower than it used to be and pitchers attack that part of the zone -groundballs are outs. Flat swings are tough against the bottom of the zone. The mound height has also changed. All of these things influence the batter's attack angle.

    And don't forget that players no longer have to juice since they started juicing the ball....

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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post
    I'm talking (I guess this is not attack angle) about the "down and back" which occurs earlier in the swing, before the sweet spot begins to go up. Is that part "measured" and is it consistently different "now" as opposed to '80's?
    The "down and back" as you call it, or the "behind and through" terminology I use, or "turn the barrel" as others call it...has been around a long time, because IMO, Ted called it a "loop in the swing" back in 1970 when he wrote the book on hitting.
    Originally posted by Ted Williams - The Science of Hitting
    My feeling was if I stayed more vertical, thereby increasing the loop in the swing, I could get the ball in the air better, which is advantageous to a power hitter—and no advantage at all to a guy who can’t put it in the seats.

    As a left-hand batter, I kept my left elbow straight back, the upper arm perpendicular to the body. I felt it gave me that umph, that little extra something to get the bat moving. This also helped create a wider loop to the swing, the opposite of a chop.
    When he talked about "I stayed more vertical", he was talking about holding his bat more vertical in his stance if you were wondering.

    It was also Ted who first put the "slight upstroke" or as we call it to today "attack angle" into the swing...
    Ted-Williams-Bat-Path.jpg
    ...although some still insist on swinging "down and to" the ball instead. Some guys just never learn...how to analyze video of what they actually did at the plate.

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  • Modal94
    replied
    Originally posted by omg View Post

    I'm talking (I guess this is not attack angle) about the "down and back" which occurs earlier in the swing, before the sweet spot begins to go up. Is that part "measured" and is it consistently different "now" as opposed to '80's?
    I think the down and back crowd has been around for a while but just masked in different language. The bonk the head of the catcher. Knob to the baseball. Swing down and level. The cues have their purpose but at the same time, when it's based on feeling over reality, there's a high chance it will not have the desired affect.

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  • omg
    replied
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    Regarding Attack angle definitely most elite hitters are around + 10-15 degrees at impact.

    there were always guys who did that but I think it is more consistent now that it is monitored so almost all hitters are the same in that regard.


    Back then it was more of a coincidence, some where natural uppercut guys and some more flat swing guys which probably still meant chop down but more like +2 degrees or so
    I'm talking (I guess this is not attack angle) about the "down and back" which occurs earlier in the swing, before the sweet spot begins to go up. Is that part "measured" and is it consistently different "now" as opposed to '80's?

    Leave a comment:

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