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  • Scapular Loading and Unloading

    Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post
    How else do you punch the ball with an uppercut?
    Great comment!

    giphy.gif

    Originally posted by rdbass View Post
    ...... What loads... unloads......
    Agree...

    Originally posted by rdbass View Post

    The SCAP is not loaded nor does it get loaded.

    The rear leg is loaded by the coil of the hip and the pulling back of the muscles of the back against the leg. The pulling of the back muscles/scap is what LOADS the rear leg/rear hip.

    A rag wring-like load is created in the rear hip socket.


    Strongly disagree....

    This will be true if one ROTATES the forearms to SLOT for a rearward launch, AND ROTATE through a single axis above and below the rear hip. (Pedroia above, does NEITHER)




    Watch the ball.....As Harper's "load in the hip" gets "unloaded" (uncoiled) by convention according by the author above,....... What continues to work in getting the ball from below the shoulder to above the shoulders? Is it the hands? forearms? arms?

    hall5_c007f007.gifouija.gif


    The scapula is vested with a surround of muscle sets that coordinate or oppose, where the contraction of one set, stretches the other. The combined actions allow the scapula to glide around the cupola of the thoracic cage in the same way the planchette (heart shaped piece) moves on the surface of a ouija board.

    In Harper's outfield throw, the scapula undergoes a transformational frame shift in re-purposing the arm-forearm complex from one lifting the ball up to the level of the shoulder, to one that brings the elbow to its apex for the throw above the shoulder.
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-18-2019, 10:53 AM.

  • #2
    ^^^^^^^^^^ see addenda

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    • #3
      I stand by what I posted:
      The SCAP is not loaded nor does it get loaded.

      The rear leg is loaded by the coil of the hip and the pulling back of the muscles of the back against the leg. The pulling of the back muscles/scap is what LOADS the rear leg/rear hip.
      Last edited by rdbass; 10-18-2019, 12:07 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not sure where the referenced contents of this thread came from, but it's interesting.....

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndCGMR9hQWI

        I'm not making a case for either side - just trying to understand where you are both coming from.

        rdbass - Do you agree with Antonelli's instruction in the video above? I don't have any disagreement with your assertion of what is happening with the rear leg and hip. To me Antonelli's pull back or Al-oha's scap load seem like just terminology differences. To create the "rag wring - like load" in the rear hip socket you have to pull against the rear leg with something. You say it's the "back muscles/scap" and I agree. If you're pulling back with the scap, why is that not loading it?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by rdbass View Post
          I stand by what I posted:

          If that's the case, what are exercises that dramatically reinforce these muscles to be more efficient? I do think Alo_ha is onto something but like hitting advice for all these years, everyone sees something and it will click to each respective person in their own AHA moment.

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          • #6

            The scapula gets loaded to re-purpose the upper extremity from one that picks up the ball, to one that whips it overhand towards the direction of the play. That scapula undergoes dynamic activity against the huge load presented by the rotating rear hip. The visual is a back getting pleated to a bend; the scapula CONTINUES TO LOAD until the upper extremity consummates its transformation and re-purposing as the rear elbow gets to its apex just before the throw.

            It is precisely at this point that maximum separation is achieved between the upper and lower halves.

            Now get this: Harper can stop at that point. He may stutter a little bit in a delay, BUT STILL THROW when he decides. His rear hip has already “UNLOADED”.

            So how would he be able to finish what was already started if he is already “UNLOADED” at the hip?

            Answer: The SCAPULA has yet to UNLOAD!!
            Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-18-2019, 01:42 PM.

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            • #7
              You're not loading the scapula....You are loading the rear leg.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by rdbass View Post
                You're not loading the scapula....You are loading the rear leg.
                Clock-17-Flying-Pendulum-Wind-up-p5.jpg

                The hip turns to wind-up a torsion spring; the final pathway in the controlled release of that stored energy is movement of an arm across the face of what we call a clock.

                I get what you're saying, but I believe you are rather dismissive.

                Originally posted by rdbass View Post

                The SCAP is not loaded nor does it get loaded.

                The rear leg is loaded by the coil of the hip and the pulling back of the muscles of the back against the leg. The pulling of the back muscles/scap is what LOADS the rear leg/rear hip.

                A rag wring-like load is created in the rear hip socket.
                The rotation of the rear hip is the START in creating torsion in the SCIP axis, the rag-wring of body segment that runs between the hip and rear scapula. It tightens in an instant upon launch. The scapula is a terminal effector that through its release, governs the action, magnitude and direction of the arm slot in the high level swing.
                Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-20-2019, 11:30 AM.

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                • #9
                  For what it is worth, I teach to load the scapula. It is also what I feel when I load.
                  Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                  I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rdbass View Post
                    You're not loading the scapula....You are loading the rear leg.
                    I Think I Agree, get in a batting stance and stand on your front leg only and scap load all you want, you got nothing. Now stand on your rear leg only and scap load, I can still deliver a decent punch, throw or swing. Not so much with the front leg only. It feels to me the upper body or torso loads around /against the rear leg.
                    Last edited by syidewayz; 10-20-2019, 11:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rdbass View Post
                      You're not loading the scapula....You are loading the rear leg.

                      Originally posted by syidewayz View Post
                      I Think I Agree….[S]tand on your rear leg only and scap load, I can still deliver a decent punch, throw or swing. Not so much with the front leg only. It feels to me the upper body or torso loads around /against the rear leg.

                      Sport_Science_Donaldson_s_swing-3.gif

                      Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
                      For what it is worth, I teach to load the scapula. It is also what I feel when I load.

                      What CB references occurs in PRE-LOAD occurring when the pitcher gets into his wind-up: This initiates of the hitter’s INTENT for the crucial scapular event that follows (but is not a pre-requisite).

                      Bonafide scapular LOADING occurs when the line between shoulder begin to diverge 45 degrees from the line between the hips. In Donaldson’s swing, the rear knee turns inward; the rear elbow slots in keeping the hand-set back: The ball is on its way. This is the critical phase in the creation of torsion and the rag-wring in the SCIP axis. The rotation of the hips is immediately opposed by the counter rotation of the back The scapula is key in generating this.

                      True work of scapular loading occurs when the two hemispheres diverge and separate. It starts at Manny's pause, then gets released when he punches to the ball.

                      Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-31-2019, 01:13 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post










                        What CB references occurs in PRE-LOAD occurring when the pitcher gets into his wind-up: This initiates of the hitter’s INTENT for the crucial scapular event that follows (but is not a pre-requisite).

                        Bonafide scapular LOADING occurs when the line between shoulder begin to diverge 45 degrees from the line between the hips. In Donaldson’s swing, the rear knee turns inward; the rear elbow slots in keeping the hand-set back: The ball is on its way. This is the critical phase in the creation of torsion and the rag-wring in the SCIP axis. The rotation of the hips is immediately opposed by the counter rotation of the back The scapula is key in generating this.

                        True work of scapular loading occurs when the two hemispheres diverge and separate. It starts at Manny's pause, then gets released when he punches to the ball.

                        Do you think teaching kids to hit with the back hip would lead to no separation ? Everything coming around together?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by syidewayz View Post
                          Do you think teaching kids to hit with the back hip would lead to no separation ? Everything coming around together?
                          You don’t need to teach them…. They all have rotational swings naturally and therefore have NO SEPARATION by default. A swing that powers through hip coil will only reinforce the pattern. The question is, do you need to teach them out of it?


                          Originally posted by rdbass View Post
                          The pulling of the back muscles/scap is what LOADS the rear leg/rear hip.
                          A rag wring-like load is created in the rear hip socket.

                          The scapula HAS NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE if the power of the swing resides in the coil of the rear hip socket. We see this promoted throughout this forum, and elsewhere:




                          This is supposed to work with forearm rotation in launching the bat head rearward.



                          Launching the barrel rearward is an absolute MUST in order to reach the high level swing. There is no other way.
                          First and foremost, the barrel must be launched by forearm rotation. …… [W]hen done properly, REMOVES THE ARMS from the swing. ….. The arms do not act independently....other than when the forearms rotate.
                          This is supposed to be a model swing path:

                          tumblr_p3huuxUhRs1usf292o1_250.gif

                          Hip coil..YES; forearm rotation with hand-pivot...YES.

                          SEPARATION, NO.

                          This was posted recently on another thread. Some may see this as high level, as the hitter is MLB:

                          This is NOT a HIGH LEVEL swing. But I'm NOT saying it "WON'T WORK"

                          Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-21-2019, 11:58 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post

                            This is supposed to be a model swing path:

                            tumblr_p3huuxUhRs1usf292o1_250.gif

                            Hip coil..YES; forearm rotation with hand-pivot...YES.

                            SEPARATION, NO.

                            This was posted recently on another thread. Some may see this as high level, as the hitter is MLB:

                            This is NOT a HIGH LEVEL swing. But I'm NOT saying it "WON'T WORK"

                            So these swings are like golf swings? Rotate in rotate out? When a ball is sitting on a tee it seems like our instinct is to turn away from the ball to get energy. Do high level hitters approach tee work different? You think adding a leg kick that doesn't coil in would promote separation..??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The scap never loads.....and....the scap never unloads....in a high level swing. It does, in the amateur swing. The scap UNLOAD is a push.
                              The muscles that coil the hip and pull the back AND SCAP 'around'....around the back of the torso.....PULL BACK AND AROUND....against the leg....as the leg attempts to internally rotate.The action of the scap, as well as the action of the hip and lower back....is to PULL BACK so as to LOAD THE LEG.....not the scap. THAT is what all high level hitters do.


                              All of them....pull back with the scap to load the leg.

                              That is why the leg turns the hip forward AS the hip, back and scap PULL BACK.

                              That is HOW the rag gets wrung.

                              THE PROPER SCAP ACTION.....keeps the weight from shifting too soon. The pulling back and around by the scap, as a hitter moves forward, creates/advances the rag wring load.....AND.....keeps the weight from shifting to the front leg too soon.

                              Comment

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