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  • Al, when you say "arching back" do you think that is the same as when people, including myself, suggest that pelvic tilt turns into lateral tilt? I am sure that you have been on these site long enough to understand those terms even if they are no longer talking points.
    RIP Joe Lindley (Jake Patterson) Oct. 25, 2019, Scott Sarginson (SSarge) Nov. 17, 2016, Donny Buster (Swingbuster) June 1st 2007. Zachary "Doug" Reddell (Bluedog) December 22, 2022. Greatly missed by so many!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
      Al, when you say "arching back" do you think that is the same as when people, including myself, suggest that pelvic tilt turns into lateral tilt? I am sure that you have been on these site long enough to understand those terms even if they are no longer talking points.
      CB, I can see where these "tilts" might fit into my perspectives of the swing. In the same way "arching" is prone to variable interpretation, I have to know the purpose of the "tilt" in context of the presumed function and purpose. It could very well be that these terms are in fact what I described.

      I post Manny's hesitation swing a lot in demonstrating the "arching'" of the back. I also show Donaldson's 45 degrees frequently. These two alone were an epiphany for me as it made me understand that a strong forward rotation of the hip gets countered with an opposing force in the upper torso. The torsion plate modeling the adaptive ambulator arching back as the corresponding hip advanced in keeping the balance was an attempt in show opposing forces yield zero movement, yet presents a window in which crucial work gets done. That work is scapular circumduction which I explained in both the throw and the swing.

      Lateral tilt I see is reflected in Brett's neck slot swing. That tilt will match the slope of the incoming ball across the plate, in the same way the top hand will be supinated to the degree in needs to when it emerges palm-up, thumb-out when the forearm is extended to the ball upon launch. Pelvic tilt I see is the pre-launch inward "coiling" in the rear hip. This event is important in all amateurs who rotate, but not important at high level. An example is Bagwell's no-stride launch. That is because the real "coiling" occurs when Hip-Shoulder Separation is generated, ie. after the hips rotate. The use of the arms, forearms in the swing in my opinion is what kills the ability to separate in the amateur. This is the reason no internet instructor regardless of background is able to reproduce the high level "take" or swing.

      I may have confused you more, but I hope this at least reflects the depth of what I see.
      Last edited by Al_Oha; 05-15-2021, 09:29 PM.

      Comment


      • image_158553.gif
        Ichiro.Stats.jpg

        ...............
        Last edited by Al_Oha; 12-10-2021, 09:09 AM.

        Comment


        • IcihiroSuzukiTakeSwing.gif

          Notice the "takes" and his swing....Ichiro Suzuki was a player package in fielding, base stealling and with an outstanding hitting percentage that garnered him All-Star and MVP for a decade in his prime. He was known as a "SLAPPER" with myriad of swing patterns documented below. He was not known as a slugger....

          He is a typical ROTATIONAL hitter. His "take" is like everyone else's. One might even make the argument for "knob to the ball".....

          IchiroSwings.jpeg
          Last edited by Al_Oha; 05-20-2021, 09:17 AM.

          Comment


          • I think it's gonna take some time to digest the gifs Al Oha sent out a couple days regarding the circumduction of the shoulder/scap complex. On another note I google'd 'SCIP axis' and stumbled across a completely different chat room dedicated to these topics. It was like a bizarro 'baseball-fever.' And there was an entire thread talking about the role of the back leg and how it pivots..it made the biomechanics discussion here seem like child's play.

            Also if Al Oha is based somewhere in Hawaii, I recommend a board convention at a batting cage near him, I'm pretty sure all these concepts regarding the remarkably sophisticated machine that is the human body could be illustrated in person far, far better than in this format. First round on me.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
              the elite will arch the back with a scapular roundhouse in reversing their forward momentum.

              The elite DO NOT NEED TO TURN BARREL rearward, because it has been done so by the ARCHING BACK.
              Thank you all for so much information.
              I have been drinking from the baseball fever firehose for a couple months and I am amazed at how much I don't know about hitting.
              With all due respect, in the Pujols take, I DO NOT see any arching of the back. It almost looks like he is rounding his back, if anything. What are my untrained eyes missing AL??

              PujolsTake.gifPosadaTake.gif

              I can't help but notice justthefacts and al_oha have a similar posting style. Both WAY over my head.

              Comment


              • Moved from original thread, Post #21.

                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                Any other questions, just ask.

                Here you go.....

                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                2nd engine would be shoulder and elbow extensions.....
                Second engine, correct?
                DB.Drill2ndEng.gif


                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post

                The 3rd engine in the approach I teach is exactly as I explained, Ulnar wrist articulation with static forearm pronation into contact...
                ...get those Popeye forearms.
                Third engine, correct?
                DB.Drill3rdEng.gif

                Here is my question: In executing the second engine, what changes can you expect in the angular acceleration to the bat's center of mass in the hitter's turn into the ball?

                Secondly, what brings the barrel to the ball, the arms' extension? the "third engine" in the hands and forearms? or all of the above?
                Attached Files
                Last edited by Al_Oha; 07-18-2021, 09:49 AM.

                Comment


                • Al_Oha

                  In executing the second engine, what changes can you expect in the angular acceleration to the bat's center of mass in the hitter's turn into the ball?
                  I'm guessing you are asking about forwards accelerations of the barrel? If you are counting rearwards acceleration you would then have to calculate “cost of redirecting angular momentum of a tethered object”. I have asked many Guru's to give me this calculation but they rather count it during and as forwards contractions timeline because they can't answer it. I've also asked physicists who walk away with so many confounding variables because of atmospheric, gravitational and human kinetic concentric contractions timings it becomes truncated and try to give me vacuumed answers.

                  The answer Kinesiologically is no forwards math is produced until those shortening contractions show up in the timeline right when forwardness can be plotted. All else before that is lengthening. If you voluntarily contract muscles that can be used later during forwards movement, they are spent and wasted at a velocity cost.

                  Short answer to your question is shoulder girdle accelerates then start deceleration's overlapped by Elbow extension that accelerates then decelerates. This is a well known theory in Kinesiology called the “preceding segment deceleration theory". It is why I believe the 3rd engine while applying forwards force, actually only conserves previous momentum and if it is not performed in youth or adult batters you decelerate into contact, when the 3rd engine, Wrist ulnar flexion is half way (range of motion) extended. past half way or none at all (most youth batters), deceleration occurs and adjustment control.

                  “Secondly, what brings the barrel to the ball, the arms' extension? the "third engine" in the hands and forearms"? or all of the above?”
                  I believe in order to attain a slightly off vectored contact to produce back spin tendencies and nominally elevated line drives, all of the above. I don't agree with Williams (not his really, his partnered writer) graphic of perfect alignment with the balls path so if you are late or early you can still make contact.

                  I believe in one sweet spot in time and place.

                  There is no Elite swings in the MLB, there are only opinions on what entertainment is best, this is why we see pitching leaping way ahead of better batting contact approach!

                  As MLB swing theory and approach changes from decade to decade it is always behind what is seen in pitching. Look what has happened with the proliferation of the high fastball (thx Dr. Marshall) because of the current approaches.

                  The affiliated clubs have not started this current change and it is going to get worse before it gets better. In other words Ishiro or Tony would still be batting in the mid 300's if still playing in their prime.





                  Last edited by Dirtberry; 07-18-2021, 01:59 PM.
                  Primum non nocere

                  Comment


                  • BatPendulum.gif
                    When the knob of a bat is pulled slowly along a line, the bat head will align in the direction of the pull. When yanked (accelerated) the bat head will overshoot equilibrium to swing around the line. Rotational inertia and this interplay with a pivot point are what we recognize as the pendulum effect.

                    The elite hitter will exploit this phenomenon in order to:
                    1. Eliminate the need of arms and forearms in powering the swing.
                    2. Minimize the degrees in freedom to the system in bringing the barrel squarely to the ball.

                    Pujols creates a rearward launch not with the arms or hands, but by scapular circumduction. The roundhouse in bat motion behind him generates hip-shoulder separation, and sets up the alignments for the punch to the ball. It is core-mediated: It keeps the top hand up, and in proximity to the rear shoulder.
                    ​​​

                    There is good reason for why the top hand is kept up, and close to the shoulder: The assembly maintains the tightest radius possible throughout the cycle from load to launch. With his top hand, the hitter generates a PENDULUM around a ROTATING PIVOT POINT.
                    Pendulum.rotatingpivot2.gif ​​ RotatingPendulumForces.jpg


                    The dot on the rotating disk is the top hand. The red ball at the end of the stick is the bat head. It traces an orange curve representing its path as a function of time. Note what happens in the second cycle in the disk's turn... There is no energy input at the pivot point. It is PASSIVE, being influenced only by the turning of the disk, and the effect of gravity on the pendulum's center of mass.

                    A special instance is achieved when the pendulum, the bat, aligns with plane of the hitter's chest (the radius or diameter of the rotating disk). The blue arc subtends the top hand's path at the rear shoulder; the red line is the path of bat travel behind the hitter towards the incoming ball. The arrow head extending beyond home plate is the direction in the elite's punch to the ball. The elte's PUNCH is precisely perpendicular to the radius (the chest wall), and geometrically where tangential velocity of the rotating system can be measured. It is at this point, the elite extends from his RVP (elbow slot). The barrel is squared to meet the ball.

                    Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                    .....If you are counting rearwards acceleration you would then have to calculate “cost of redirecting angular momentum of a tethered object”
                    There is NO COST. At high level, scapular circumduction is pre-launch movement REARWARD in the STORAGE of POTENTIAL ENERGY for the eventual release in the rotating pivot when the hitter becomes KINETIC. Scapular circumduction augments the natural physics of a pendulum through a rotating pivot.

                    Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                    [S]houlder girdle accelerates then start deceleration's overlapped by Elbow extension that accelerates then decelerates. This is well known theory ...called the “preceding segment deceleration theory". It is why I believe the 3rd engine while applying forwards force, actually only conserves previous momentum...
                    When a boxer delivers a body blow, that punch is swift and directed. It does not decelerate until contact.

                    Your premise are based on obsolete models coming from golf swings, and amateurs who use their arms, forearms freely.


                    DB.Drill3rdEng.gif

                    When your hitter goes to slot, he disconnects from the rear shoulder to INCREASE the radius in his rotation. This increases the centripetal force to the swing, but it SLOWS angular acceleration. In getting the barrel to the ball, he needs to parlay multiple pendula in getting the barrel to the ball. Shoulder to elbow, elbow to forearm, then the opposing wrist to torque the barrel (aka "third engine") of the bat in getting the bat through the ball.

                    In computer programming, the more line of code written to accomplish a specific output, the more prone it is to inefficiency and error.

                    The elite manages one pivot point to the ball. In the amateur, the use of the hands rely on multiple pivot points and pendula in squaring the round cross section of the bat to a lightening fast incoming spherical orb. It is no wonder your gurus are not able to make the calculations.
                    Last edited by Al_Oha; 06-29-2022, 09:31 AM.

                    Comment


                    • ^^^^^^^^^^updated above.

                      Comment


                      • Al, I would be interested in your opinion on a drill I created and if you don't like it, I won't be offended. I had a hitter who was spinning out and didn't have a sense of feel for the upper portion of the body. To preface what I teach, I teach point the knob/deliver the barrel. I believe in connection but that the hands ride the relationship with the back shoulder for a very brief period of time. So, I had the young lady take her stance at a tee. I had her really split her grip with the bottom hand at the knob and the upper hand in the area of the softball bat where the barrel begins. I had her try to point the knob but resist with the upper hand and feel that tension. I had her do that action 2 times and then on the third time, start with the split gip but let the top hand slide down after initial tension. Al, I know that this is crazy but it seemed to really work. This young lady had a very good weekend last weekend. I hope that this description makes sense. I don't have a video of it and I would doubt that her mom would let me film it.

                        BTW, imagine a sense of what Pujols is doing in one of the previous posts but with a split grip and the knob/resistance being the objective.
                        RIP Joe Lindley (Jake Patterson) Oct. 25, 2019, Scott Sarginson (SSarge) Nov. 17, 2016, Donny Buster (Swingbuster) June 1st 2007. Zachary "Doug" Reddell (Bluedog) December 22, 2022. Greatly missed by so many!

                        Comment


                        • Al_Oha,

                          “When the knob of a bat is pulled slowly along a line, the bat head will align in the direction of the pull. When yanked (accelerated) the bat head will overshoot equilibrium to swing around the line.”
                          Only if the pulling contractions are performed alone! Remember there are other joints along the way that are being voluntarily and involuntarily Plioanglosly and Mioanglosly contracted. You seem to like to eliminate these functions.

                          “Rotational inertia and this interplay with a pivot point are what we recognize as the pendulum effect.”
                          Understand by eliminating multiple joint “points” you are causing false assertions from truthful explanations. Joints are still moving apart from each other and being contracted for or against.

                          In this phase they are being at first Plioanglosly pulled away from each other a contraction cost.

                          In order to get this tethered action to head in a forwards movement contraction must be spent, it's all in the math.

                          “The elite hitter will exploit this phenomenon in order to:”
                          All batters exploit this phenomenon unless you consider “Elite”( a marketing term) can be performed by a 6 YO also.

                          “1. Eliminate the need of arms and forearms in powering the swing.”
                          Understand I have been convinced by actual EMG reaction readings and listening to unmerited cheering does not convince some people that eliminating joints along the way has merit, even if EMG's sometimes produce artifacts.

                          “Pujols creates a rearward launch not with the arms or hands, but by scapular circumduction.”
                          Again you have conveniently left of compounded joint actions of the tether that make this statement false.

                          Any amount of involuntary or voluntary mioanglos muscle contractions contribute.

                          It's not called the Kinetic link.

                          “tightest radius possible”
                          This statement is now getting to the point I am trying to get you to realize. Your perfect radius ”isoanglos” is not, it is actually a cycloid (conk shell pattern) that in the beginning is eccentric, meaning contraction is occurring, not at a cost at that point, just moving in the wrong direction.

                          “The elte's PUNCH is precisely perpendicular to the radius (the chest wall), and geometrically where tangential velocity of the rotating system can be measured.”
                          There is math all along the path, some of it is backwards (coach Newton balks) when this path is contracted back the other way there is a cost of redirecting it. You like others have eliminated it because you can't come to terms with it as seen in your enthusiasm to promptly answer back, now you balk.

                          “There is NO COST.”
                          Acceleration graphs say different!

                          “At high level”
                          Define high level?

                          “scapular circumduction is pre-launch movement REARWARD in the STORAGE of POTENTIAL ENERGY”
                          This is Kinetic energy and it is not stored, coach Newton disagrees!

                          “for the eventual release in the rotating pivot when the hitter becomes KINETIC.”
                          They are batters at this point because no contact has been made in the sentence.

                          When you have Kinetic energy moving in the wrong direction it is desirable to get it going in the opposite direction, in order to do this there is a cost of redirection Coach Newton likes this, you need to come to terms with this fact so the good info you present can be added.

                          “Scapular circumduction augments the natural physics of a pendulum through a rotating pivot.”
                          You can swing the bat without shoulder girdle horizontal abduction and many do, you will still get pendulum effects. What matters most is genetic fast twitch recruitment ability.

                          “When a boxer delivers a body blow, that punch is swift and directed. It does not decelerate until contact.”
                          False, When the extension of the Elbow nears end of range of motion the brain signals the contraction to shut down, decelerating because of Reciprocal inhibition to keep the elbow from Hyper extending and causing severe damage! Only ¾ of the way thru is this true.

                          “Your premise are based on obsolete models coming from golf swings”
                          I believe golf swings act under the same conditions but much of the preceding contractions are stored as potential energy (memory) in the golf shaft to be used later near contact. last I checked the baseball bat does not store potential energy, maybe a micro amount due to lateral stress. This is why I think golf analogies have little merit.

                          “amateurs who use their arms, forearms freely.”
                          Non paid athletes all use their legs, Torso, shoulders arms freely and under voluntary and involuntary controls.

                          “the elite extends from his RVP (elbow slot).”
                          You lost me at RVP and the Elbow does not slot, it extends and flexes or remains isoanglos.

                          “The barrel is squared to meet the ball.”
                          This would be “Elite” in anyone.

                          “ he disconnects from the rear shoulder”
                          The rear shoulder in forwards action activities perform decelerator contractions.

                          “This increases the centripetal force to the swing, but it SLOWS angular acceleration.”
                          The swinger is way past those beginning contractions and pressing for fitness and proprioceptive awareness

                          “In getting the barrel to the ball, he needs to parlay multiple pendula in getting the barrel to the ball.”
                          This drill has nothing to do with beginning phases of the swing or the first engine!

                          “Shoulder to elbow, elbow to forearm, then the opposing wrist to torque the barrel (aka "third engine") of the bat in getting the bat through the ball.”
                          I'm OK with that but you left out core, Serratis functions before shoulder.

                          “In computer programming, the more line of code written to accomplish a specific output, the more prone it is to inefficiency and error.”
                          Unfortunately we are discussing biological functions and eliminating joint function is a NO NO.

                          “The elite manages one pivot point to the ball.”
                          You are describing ”whip only” function with one engine. This is far from a productive discussion of what is actually compounding.

                          “In the amateur, the use of the hands rely on multiple pivot points and pendula in squaring the round cross section of the bat to a lightening fast incoming spherical orb.”
                          So you believe you must be paid to be called Elite and who is talking about grip (hands) I was asking the OP at the other thread to add in an unused element (wrist joint) that has youth batters fail in conserving power with a ballistic outgoing spherical shaft

                          “It is no wonder your gurus are not able to make the calculations.”
                          Wait a minute, you were the one that failed to give the calks for “cost of redirection”.

                          I've heard your spiel before from others, next time give your own opinion so when coach Newton balks the originator of your info can retort.

                          later, Lon J Fullmer









                          Last edited by Dirtberry; 07-24-2021, 01:41 AM.
                          Primum non nocere

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
                            IcihiroSuzukiTakeSwing.gif

                            Notice the "takes" and his swing....Ichiro Suzuki was a player package in fielding, base stealling and with an outstanding hitting percentage that garnered him All-Star and MVP for a decade in his prime. He was known as a "SLAPPER" with myriad of swing patterns documented below. He was not known as a slugger....

                            He is a typical ROTATIONAL hitter. His "take" is like everyone else's. One might even make the argument for "knob to the ball".....

                            IchiroSwings.jpeg
                            Suzuki distinguishes himself from the hitters invited to Home Run Derby in that he was a master of arms, forearms and hand in attaining batting percentages over ten years. He is known as a slapper and not for booming home runs, but gets invited because he can hit them anticipating the location of pitches. At game speed, those opportunities are rare. Instead, he employs an armamentarium of swing patterns in a variable display in core, extremity permutations in adapting to the location of the pitch. Getting on plane with a rotational swing gets the ball in play, but will not get the booming home runs. What he accomplished is exceedingly exceptional.

                            In contrast, the hitters below exhibit the common characteristics in swing patterns for all pitches into the strike zone using their core, and not relying on "popeye forearms".

                            Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post

                            These are high level hitters in a recent home run derby....

                            CabreraHRDerb.gifDonaldsonHRDerb.gif

                            HowardHRDerb.gifAbreuHRDerb.gif

                            Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post

                            Comment


                            • Al_oha,


                              “not relying on "popeye forearms"”
                              All or nothing thinking is a detriment to you and others.

                              Nothing was denied in the first 2 engines. Reliance on all 3 is preferable!

                              Popeye core, Popeye rotators and Popeye all the rest.

                              This statement is an all encompassing theme in your thoughts. I embrace all 3 engines while you embrace one then blame me for talking about a missing one in a youth batter and then thinking I only believe in one like you. Give it up, you are digging hole to deep to get out of.

                              In both your examples you do not realize the size and strength of the forearm in both and the fact that during 2/3rds of the way thru their swings, Isoanglosly (isometric) contracted Forearm to wrist activation exists in them and then range of motion contracted concentrically after and overlapped.

                              People do this all the time, they show the evidence for their assertions but leave out the counter evidence like a good shot of wrist activation's. This does not help youth batters that are actually the subject here!

                              Last edited by Dirtberry; 07-24-2021, 03:32 PM.
                              Primum non nocere

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                                Al_oha,

                                Reliance on all 3 is preferable!

                                Popeye core, Popeye rotators and Popeye all the rest.

                                This statement is an all encompassing theme in your thoughts you embrace one then blame me for talking about a missing one in a youth batter and then thinking I only believe in one like you. Give it up, you are digging hole to deep to get out of.
                                A "sequence" of events in hips to hands is the central dogma. It is therefore reasonable to "drill" an event as you have shown in the "third" engine, the terminal component just before contact.

                                My response was:

                                Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
                                So before you bite....a caution for what you may need to undo at the competitive levels...It is not a lasting solution to bat drag..
                                First off, I do not blame you for anything. I'm sorry you feel this way, but if anyone is to be "blamed", it is the rest of baseball hitting instructions. That is why I started this thread.
                                TugofWar.jpeg
                                Conceptually, a tug of war occurs between hips and the upper torso. if a red marker at the middle of the rope is the indicator to the "winning" side, there may be no net movement at the outset, but it will begin to creep... This becomes manifest in what most will call "forward by coil".
                                ForwardbyCoil.gif
                                This is very difficult to parse out, because it represents an integration of simultaneous and immediately opposing events. It is a feel, and no drill will reproduce it. Manny's Hesitation Drill I post ad nauseum is the closest one can get.

                                Launch occurs when the the losing team decides to "let go". The potential energy stored in the rope, will IMMEDIATELY snap forward with the system turning KINETIC.

                                LAUNCH therefore is a BINARY event as opposed to SEQUENTIAL ONE.

                                TorsionPlateSnap.gif RotatingPendulumForces.jpg
                                The blue arc on the torsion plate subtends the activity of the top hand at the rear shoulder as a rotating pivot point. The barrel is snapped as a pendulum to the ball.

                                In my opinion, all good hitters whether amateur or high level will create a reversal against the forward momentum of the hips in POTENTIAL ENERGY generation in the upper torso. This provides a window in alignments in adjusting into the plane before the decision to launch.

                                "Third engine" is a terminal event capping a sequence. It promotes rotation in only one direction in synching with the hip. So my word of "caution" is that this empowers a young hitter to believe in it for both power and bat alignment. Muscle memory becomes difficult to undo in relying upon it as the hitter advances to competitive levels and in need of a whip. There is no early whip in a rotational swing.
                                Last edited by Al_Oha; 12-15-2021, 08:30 AM.

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