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  • Cannonball
    replied
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    Amateur_MLB.Slot.gif

    Do these "feel" the same in the way the upper body moves? if different, how so?
    Al, the swing on the left is a push swing. I don't care for it. Also, it looks like there is a lot of hip slide in that swing. Hip action is also a lot different wrt open or slightly closed.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    ...continued from Swing feedback 11U

    Originally posted by Soonerdude View Post
    .... the difference is slotting first in torsional vs. rearward launch first in rotational.....right?
    It is not the sequencing of the slot relative to the barrel turn; it is how the barrel turn creates the slot. In the amateur, the slot generates barrel turn with arms, forearms and both hands turning handle rearward, allowing the elbow to pass the rear hip. For the elite, it is the scapula that gets the rear elbow immediately into the extended position. NO arms or forearms are involved.

    Freeman induces barrel turn with the core muscles in the scapula through retraction and circumduction. The scapula tucks the rear elbow in the same way a fighter jet gets it wings into the fuselage in aligning the elbow behind the forearm and top hand for instantaneous extension.
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    What do winged fighters on an aircraft carrier have in common with the elite ?...
    Jet_FoldWing.gif

    .... The hitter streamlines and tightens their hitting radius by folding in the rear arm and shoulder into their fuselage.....


    Have a coach incorporate the fence drill for a tee to the outside corner of the plate. To square the ball, it would be almost impossible to do so consistently with rotational mechanics no matter how often one drills for the outside ball on the tee.. For the elite, they torse to square in a fence drill each and every time for any pitch throughout the zone.

    Originally posted by Modal94 View Post
    ...he swings too hard without having the right amount of control to go with it.. .....trading power for more control should correct the pop ups and ground outs

    Originally posted by Soonerdude View Post
    .... I'm also hesitant to stop him from swinging at max intent, which may help if I did.
    Restricting the intent is counterproductive and oxymoronic for the hitter who rotates. The elite do not subtract power and intent for better control: They do all the above exacting balance with total control.

    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    Amateurs struggle to temper forward thrust in balancing their launch position: Employed are hip-centered abatement strategies as "the stride with the rear leg", "coil balanced over the rear leg", "swing one legged"...


    Pitcher above struggles to keep his balance as he teeters to keep momentum from creeping forward: This is hip abatement while the hip is coiled. Shown below is what might be taught in "forward by coil, while hands stay back" in typical hip abatement strategy.

    DFP_FYB.gif

    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    PitcherReversal.gif


    < ​ represents hip flexion.

    >​ patterns hip hyperextension.
    CONTROL in the elite is executed through SEPARATION and NOT through HIP COIL and the REAR LEG. The rear hip goes into hyperextension with as much force that the athlete requires. That force is opposed by forces in the upper torso as the countermeasure. The athlete remains BALANCED into full SEPARATION.

    HipShoulderSepAmputee.gif
    The adaptive ambulator can thrust the leading hip as forcefully as he wants, but will remain balanced by the opposing force in upper torso in SEPARATION.

    The rear hip extension creates a NEW FULCRUM, into which the forward momentum is directed.

    MookieBetts.Separation.jpgMookieBettsRVP.jpg

    Mookie Betts creates separation in the launch position. As the rear hip achieves the required extension in the second frame, it creates a new fulcrum TOWARDS which his forward momentum will be carried. When his chest and hip plane are "flush", he will be in complete balance for his launch. In a similar way, when the adaptive ambulator comes to a stop, his hips and chest will fall into the same plane in a neutral, but standing balanced position: Forward momentum will be carried into his fulcrum.



    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    In the case of the amateur:
    Skeleton_Hitting.gifSkeleton_Hitting*.gif
    Red ellipse is the hitter’s fulcrum (“hiitting is from the ground up”). Blue is the effort in work or its force (“loading the leg”,"hip coil" “leg bursts”). Circled in yellow is the load, the hitter’s bat in hands. Elements between the fulcrum to load defines the hitting lever [in the amateur].​
    In contrast, the amateur will move AWAY from his fulcrum. Any strong effort forward will require abatement measures in controlling that fall.

    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    SonicSpinner.gif
    ... the elite will pull opposites to sequence what is in between. The swing is NOT a fall forward.
    The athlete can pull at either end with as much or little force needed. The hitter is empowered to execute his sequence instantly as the demand requires without losing that control.






    ​​
    Last edited by Al_Oha; Yesterday, 11:57 AM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    Amateur_MLB.Slot.gif

    Do these "feel" the same in the way the upper body moves? if different, how so?
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 01-14-2023, 09:39 AM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    PoseyCoil.song.gif

    Yellow to green lines. ....At frame 155, is this the hitter's launch position?

    My answer: Green represents the hitter's launch position in the amateur.

    The elite hitter and pitcher work the hip and rear leg in a transition from < to > :

    PitcherReversal.gif


    < ​ represents hip flexion.

    >​ patterns hip hyperextension.

    When the athlete hyperextends then stops, does he have a restart after a pause? In that restart, are the forces degraded to finish the activity? Why?

    My answer: Hyperextension in the elite will not consume energy, but continues to store it. The event defines the elite's separation. From this point, he can cease action for a "take", or initiates the commitment for the launch. Forces are not degraded following a pause because it is an energy storing (vs energy consuming) event.

    Why?

    Answer to follow.
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 01-28-2023, 01:51 PM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    CONTINUATION

    The amateur hitter is comparable to the high jumper in the STRADDLE technique. The athlete musters kinetic force to elevate mass of the entire torso over the bar:

    StraddleHighJump.gif
    In the 1968 Mexico Olympics, Dick Fosbary established his legacy in the Fosbury Flop. In bisecting the upper from lower torso at the critical moment, he established a center of mass BELOW the bar for his gold-winning performance.

    FosburyFlop.gif Fosbury_Flop.gif

    This thread identifies how the output performance is augmented by hip-shoulder separation. The understanding that bisecting the upper from the lower torso through scapular activity, rather than a "ground up" energy transmission from the hips in an open chain system endorsed by most, is the hurdle to overcome in the hitter's "rabbit hole" from optimal performance.

    Separation is obvious for the swimmer or high jumper. In contrast, the activity in milliseconds for the hitter may not be as discriminating for all to see.
    ​​
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 12-04-2022, 01:54 PM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied

    Originally posted by Cannonball View Post

    .. I teach to "get the hip in the way to get it out of the way." .....the front hips coil is subtle.
    LarsNoot_Driveline.gif
    Both "before" and "after" swings a month apart are the same swing in the Driveline model: Coil to uncoil. There is NO SEPARATION. If it is objectively measurable, it is functionally neglible.

    The article acknowledges the benefit of hip-shoulder separation. At toe touch, the pelvis rotates ahead of the upper torso. By reducing the inward turn of the hip prior to launch, the coil is "softened" for it to more freely rotate ahead of the torso for increased hip-shoulder rotation. The remedy purportedly improved the student's baseline hip-shoulder rotation from 8o to 11-35o . In doing so, bat speed increased +5-8 mph for the individual.

    This is another Driveline hitter in similar mechanics in Coil to Uncoil with corresponding metrics:
    Drive.Line.Pro.gif

    Driveline's proflle hitter rotates his pelvis at 700o/second at its peak (charted as a RED curve), just as Donaldson angular velocity at the hip is similar at 700o/second.

    Donaldson..SportsScience.gif DonaldsonBatSpeedGraphic.jpg

    Donaldson's angular velocity of 2700o/sec in the hands is off-the-chart compared to 2100o/sec in the profiled example (charted in BROWN). Top measure in separation achieves 18o in Driveline's lab. Donaldson's creates a significantly greater separation at 45o with much greater bat speed: 92 mph compared to the average MLBer at 77 mph.

    If the swing is initiated by pelvic rotation in the transmission of energy through an open link system, one would predict similar outputs in bat speed with comparable angular velocities at the initiation through the hips. This premise is untrue for the elite. And I do not think that Donaldson is physically superior to the Driveline model in offering a reason.

    The difference in Donaldson's construct is how the upper torso competes against as opposed to transmitted from the inward rotation of the rear leg and pelvis. How deeply Donaldson's coil in the pre-launch sequence has nothing to do with superior hip-shoulder separation.

    Diveline's models get to RVP with a rearward bat head by swiveling the arm in the shoulder socket for some measure in resistance against the hips in achieving 18o separation:

    ScapJtHumeralRot.gif

    Donaldson rearward bat arc is accomplished through scapular retraction and circumduction in the thoraco-scapular joint for the robust 45o separation.

    ThoracoScapularJoint.jpg

    This hitter's arm (below) swivels like most amateurs, except that without a rearward re-direct there is no whip: He will have little, if no separation: He launches from scapular retraction, with no redirect. No re-direct, no whip, no separation.
    ​​CroppedSwivel.gif

    Bisecting body domains into upper and lower halves in time-sensitive events impacts the dynamics and biomechanics in athletic performance.

    The amateur hitter is comparable to the swimmer with an open turn at the wall, compared to the athlete shaving off crucial milliseconds in the flip turn in the timed event.

    Open.vs.FlipTurn.gif

    ​​​​Flip.vs.Open.Timed.gif
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    .....FLIP TURN The swimmer performs an under water flip turn: Momentum is preserved when the head and upper torso reverses direction as the hips and legs continue towards the wall. The hips will tuck the legs and knees, halving the upper torso from the lower in separation. ….. That reversal is critical in that she secures a rise in potential energy stored in the flexion of her hip and knees. When she kicks off the wall, she will accelerate in the opposite direction converting potential to kinetic energy. More important, the momentum preserved in the system is now allocated to half the mass that she needs to move. This is the principle of the WHIP.
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    ,,,,,OPEN TURN; the swimmer touches the wall and gathers: Hip and torso reverse in transitioning into the opposite direction as a single unit. The swimmer stops; in contrast, there is no stopping in the flip turn.
    .

    CONTINUED
    ​​
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 12-04-2022, 01:10 PM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    I could not have done this any better, Dominik. I believe you now understand the crux of this thread...
    Dominik_ScapDrill.gif

    Dominik is demonstrating exactly how the "corner" is created. The ripples you see on the elites' back reflect the activity of the scapula-thoracic joint operating against the forward thrust of the rear hip. Note how Dominik (in red) turns the hip away from the wall, and while keeping the top hand back. He creates separation between the upper and lower torso. Observe that the top hand will direct a punch downward. The scapula, shoulder and corresponding upper extremity assemble as a ​slider crank mechanism in delivering the load directly to target.

    The "corner" of the elite:



    Dominik "keeps the hands back as the hip turns away from the wall" for separation allowing the hitter to swing within a "fence drill" (red line) regardless of pitch location in the strike zone.
    PujolsPunch.NOSeparation.gif

    Note the ladle in Dominik's top hand. He supinates the top hand in getting the barrel into plane. When the rear elbow approaches the slot or "RVP" position, the barrel gets turned as a helicopter's propellor blades rotating in the plane of the horizon before extension. The elite will do this differently.

    What I would change in Dominik's demonstration is that the bat gets supinated but not through the horizon.. Observe Pujols demonstrating the punch to the ball. If he had a cork screw in the top hand, he would be supinating the top hand corkscrewing the implement straight to the ball through a very different geometry.
    Corkscrew.jpg

    Corkscrewing the bat into plane is not difficult as it sounds because the barrel turn is leveraged through hip-shoulder separation: The bat in ounces is negligible work for muscle mass of the upper torso in kilograms to flip the barrel palm-up.

    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    The elite is distinguished from the amateur because BARREL TURN occurs BEFORE HIP SLOT. This is accomplished through hip-shoulder separation: Judoka barrel turns the feet of his opponent, not because of arms, forearms and hand, but by leveraging of the core.
    Judo..Throw.gif
    CPujolsSwivel.gifCCabreraSwivel.gif

    The swoosh one sees in the hitter is the function of hip shoulder separation, retraction/circumduction and simultaneous top hand supination. The abducted rear arm in the pre-load gets tucked in by scapular retraction and circumduction in the crucial moments of separation.

    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    What do winged fighters on an aircraft carrier have in common with the elite ?
    Jet_FoldWing.gif
    Hence, the "corner": The hitter streamlines and tightens their hitting radius by folding in the rear arm and shoulder into their fuselage, their core. Simultaneously, they supinate the top hand like a corkscrew in leveraging the barrel turn that you see. The hitter's purpose generates a slider crank in delivering the barrel as a punch to the ball.
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 11-10-2022, 08:06 AM.

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  • Modal94
    replied
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    I think this thread has really helped my coaching some.

    My d3 college player I have been working with for 3 years has made a big stride this summer and raked in fall ball. For context learning motor skills doesn't come easy to him, he mostly was a bench player in a strong HS program and didn't play much his freshman year in college but this summer something has clicked and I think some work on that scap stuff has really helped him there, he could feel his swing getting quicker and with better direction.

    I developed those two drills for the scap, not sure how correct that is but it helped.



    https://youtube.com/shorts/QTUyfGMtpm8?feature=share
    One thing I will say, the Scap plays a part if it causes the rear shoulder to help drive through the ball and help extend the hitting stroke. The folks who tighten up and have T-rex arms on the swing will get blown away with velo.

    If you have video before and after, I can see if something specific clicked that wasn't before.

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  • dominik
    replied
    I think this thread has really helped my coaching some.

    My d3 college player I have been working with for 3 years has made a big stride this summer and raked in fall ball. For context learning motor skills doesn't come easy to him, he mostly was a bench player in a strong HS program and didn't play much his freshman year in college but this summer something has clicked and I think some work on that scap stuff has really helped him there, he could feel his swing getting quicker and with better direction.

    I developed those two drills for the scap, not sure how correct that is but it helped.



    video, sharing, camera phone, video phone, free, upload

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  • Modal94
    replied
    It's all in the hands baby. Shoulders, hips, all play a role, but to be the foundational part of the swing, will only lead to clogging up a good swing and flow of said swing.

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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    ​Butt walker can accomplish the same as the ambulator with or without the legs or knees, by engaging countermeasures in the upper torso. (ie. comparison may not be fair in that goals differ in explaining their adaptation). Both demonstrate the capacity to lift the glutes off the floor and advance it forward. All that might be required is raising the awareness that core activity may not necessarily be hip centered , but a shoulder focused event depending on the goal.
    No he cannot.

    The muscles that you want him to engage for the "countermeasures" are already engaged accomplishing another task necessary to allow forward movement (clearing his legs from the ground).

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  • mudvnine
    replied
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post
    [URL=filedata/fetch?id=3665791&d=1666021617]Here is another to think about....
    AntonelliMedicineBall.gifBoxerSeparation.AKhan .gif

    Antonelli's medicine ball drill....How is this similar or different from the boxer's launch into the opponent's midsection?
    Only do those drills if you want to become a successful commercial real estate broker 14 years later....



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  • Cannonball
    replied
    In the boxer's punch, the shoulders are leading the back shoulder or what was once called separation. Back in the day the resistance was talked about where a kind of power base was built before it was released. Notice the boxer's right shoulder.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    Lauren.Chamberlain_1.gif Lauren.Chamberlain_2.gif
    JAlo_Homerun.gif JAlo.HR34.gif

    Two successful collegiate softball hitters, Chamberlain and Alo. Each set is a ball in different strike zones..

    For those new to the thread, are these the same mechanics? For those who have been around, how is forward momentum managed similarly or differently, and why?

    Here is another to think about....
    AntonelliMedicineBall.gifBoxerSeparation.AKhan .gif

    Antonelli's medicine ball drill....How is this similar or different from the boxer's launch into the opponent's midsection?
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-17-2022, 10:57 AM.

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  • Al_Oha
    replied
    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post

    Butt walker on the left demonstrates an exercise in glutes strengthening. Adaptive ambulator transits naturally with a handicap in a study on the right. .....[I]n what way is the mechanics an advantage or disadvantage?
    ..

    ButtWalk.gif​​​​​ HipShoulderSepAmputee.gif​​​​​​
    ​​​​​​​​​​​ ​ ​​​​​​​​​​​

    Originally posted by pattar View Post
    …..[ambulator] movements create hip shoulder separation…
    Correct. The ambulator creates hip shoulder separation. The butt walker does not.

    Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
    ….man doing the quad strengthing exercise is harnessing his core muscles more…
    If the goal is to transit across the floor, each engage core muscles and pelvic structure similarly towards that specific goal. On the other hand, if the goal is to swing a bat efficiently, that would be a whole different story in the exploitation of available resources up and down the core and not what just resides in the pelvis

    Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
    The walker on the left has to activate his glutes (abs, and quads) to lift his feet/legs off the floor…
    It would be a fairer comparison…. to do the drill on his knees, where …. shoulder separation …. incorporated into the movement for balance, vs forward thrust
    Butt walker can accomplish the same as the ambulator with or without the legs or knees, by engaging countermeasures in the upper torso. (ie. comparison may not be fair in that goals differ in explaining their adaptation). Both demonstrate the capacity to lift the glutes off the floor and advance it forward. All that might be required is raising the awareness that core activity may not necessarily be hip centered , but a shoulder focused event depending on the goal.

    And that is the point....Amateurs struggle to temper forward thrust in balancing their launch position: Employed are hip-centered abatement strategies as "the stride with the rear leg", "coil balanced over the rear leg", "swing one legged", with little to no regard to potential transformative contributions from the upper torso.

    The answer to a consistently balanced swing lies in what the upper half mounts against the lower half. Integral in execution is the scapula operating as joint against hip rotation: No scapular retraction/circucumduction, NO separation. Implicit to this is that the hitter swings from the chest by intent, and not by rotating the torso to power the swing as would happen most naturally.
    Rotating_Plate*.gif Torsion..BarVert.gif

    The butt walker frames a rectangular plate (green plate) where a turn in the shoulder will synchronize rotation with the hips. The shoulder line borders the top, with the hip line defining the bottom of the plate. The system powers through a single axis defining the mechanics of almost all hitters, including Aaron Judge’s 2017, or Carlos Castro. I have referred to these swings as “rotational”.
    AaronJudge..2017.gifCarlosCastroSwing.gif
    In the case of the adaptive ambulator, (yellow plate) the upper and lower halves of the torso are independent domains. A turn in the lower half is countered by a rotation in the opposite direction in the upper half. Hip and shoulder lines diverge in SEPARATION. There is twist to the rectangular plate for which I have described as “torsional”. The elite are "torsional" hitters.

    LLWS.2022.West.gif
    Little Leaguer is "amateur" but demonstrates torsional mechanics of the elite. He engages the upper torso for the sudden impulse.

    AntonelliMedicineBall.gif
    Pure "rotational" mechanic promoted in a drill (Antonelli) creates NO separation and relies on a rotating torso, and the use of the arms to power his launch.
    Last edited by Al_Oha; 10-14-2022, 11:17 AM.

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