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    Batting approaches for the most part are not deforming or pathomechanical so people can claim success with any approach that causes exit contact consistency and power, well guess what in truth most of them do so! I find it more interesting when people just explain what they do without all the marketing as if there was a single approach that was the best in all situations.

    Here you have everybody talking about approaches that occur at the MLB level during the regular season when their level is with youth players and how that game is developmental. I believe you must train youth players for high contact ratio first with emphasis on “pitch location contact”.

    Here and most everywhere else the Gurus emphasis is one blasting high arc bombs like a regular season MLB player and they always use a belly high fastball pics or video to prove their contentions.

    The truth is everybody here and including those few who actually get to work with older players work mainly with youth batters and the teaching approach needs to be hard contact oriented so you then get a chance as an adult to miss it more and hitting it higher.

    Think Motor skill aptitude for any particular actions for why it works for some but not others.

    The whole process would be more palatable if people would refrain from using inflammatory marketing words like ”Elite”, “high level”, “only” and on and on, that helps nothing but their ego's. This all or nothing thinking when dealing with safe mechanics is detrimental and none of it is better than the others in the end. I realized my self I was using the words ”state of the art” when describing Dr. Marshall's discovery and it's a mistake when only very few, even if it's subliminally rolling in use it's principles yet.






    Primum non nocere

  • #2
    Hard to argue anything written there. Nice post "dirt".
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes and amen, 100% agree!
      Ty Cobb-"Every great batter works on the theory that the pitcher is more afraid of him than he is of the pitcher."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
        Batting approaches for the most part are not deforming or pathomechanical so people can claim success with any approach that causes exit contact consistency and power, well guess what in truth most of them do so! I find it more interesting when people just explain what they do without all the marketing as if there was a single approach that was the best in all situations.

        Here you have everybody talking about approaches that occur at the MLB level during the regular season when their level is with youth players and how that game is developmental. I believe you must train youth players for high contact ratio first with emphasis on “pitch location contact”.

        Here and most everywhere else the Gurus emphasis is one blasting high arc bombs like a regular season MLB player and they always use a belly high fastball pics or video to prove their contentions.

        The truth is everybody here and including those few who actually get to work with older players work mainly with youth batters and the teaching approach needs to be hard contact oriented so you then get a chance as an adult to miss it more and hitting it higher.

        Think Motor skill aptitude for any particular actions for why it works for some but not others.

        The whole process would be more palatable if people would refrain from using inflammatory marketing words like ”Elite”, “high level”, “only” and on and on, that helps nothing but their ego's. This all or nothing thinking when dealing with safe mechanics is detrimental and none of it is better than the others in the end. I realized my self I was using the words ”state of the art” when describing Dr. Marshall's discovery and it's a mistake when only very few, even if it's subliminally rolling in use it's principles yet.





        Thanks Dirtberry - I agree that effective teaching is very different than effective marketing.

        Can you help me understand what you mean by "pitch location contact". Are you talking about hitting back where it came from - going over first base on an outside pitch, pulling an inside pitch, and right back up the middle on one inbetween? Or are you talking about something else?

        What do you mean by "think Motor skill aptitude"?

        My son (age 11) takes hitting lessons with an instructor that we like. The instructor actually argues that mimicking MLB swings can be detrimental to a youth player as the MLB hitter is a 1 in a million talent and has features to their swing that leverage that rare ability. What do you think?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post

          Thanks Dirtberry - I agree that effective teaching is very different than effective marketing.

          Can you help me understand what you mean by "pitch location contact". Are you talking about hitting back where it came from - going over first base on an outside pitch, pulling an inside pitch, and right back up the middle on one inbetween? Or are you talking about something else?
          Not Dirtberry, but that's how I read it. "Hit it where it's pitched" (e.g., don't try to pull an outside pitch)

          Originally posted by baseabllmom View Post
          What do you mean by "think Motor skill aptitude"?
          "Physical Talent"

          Comment


          • #6
            I hate to continue to bore membership with my repeated thoughts on stuff like this. As many of you know, I tried to have my daughter's swing modeled after Albert Pujols. We began with the no stride and heel-toe action Albert first started with when he came to the Cardinals. Also, as I have repeatedly mentioned, she never was a total match. Albert's swing was simply a pattern that I thought that she could get close to and of which would provide good outcomes. You might remember that back then, the prevailing thought in many hitting facilities was that there was a softball and baseball swing. I have always coached "the swing" as I understand it with Ted Williams book The Science of Hitting as the base.

            From that point, sure there were marketers who influenced some of what I teach/taught. Dirtberry makes excellent points about the marketing. He, Mud, ... have been around this stuff for a long time. A critical point that Dirtberry makes is that so many of these marketers take athletes who already have had exceptional collegiate careers and/or are playing professional ball and then say, "see what I have done with ..." Few of us start with that type of athlete. I have been asked before if I thought that what I taught my daughter would work for pros? How would I know. I've had a few play professionally but, and this is important, there are so many other influences along the way. I have asked one of these gurus on this website back in the day if his "student" tells the hitting coaches at the MLB level that he will listen to the guru instead and to leave him alone. I think not given that these guys are rookies trying to make it on the big club. Finally, that hitting coach at the professional level is there every day working with that hitter. The guru is not.
            Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

            I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

            Comment


            • #7
              My son's hitting coach is teaching him downward to create the back spin. I have been with the coach for 3 years, In games I just don't see the result, I always remind myself be patient, trust the process, but I am losing patience now. I understand the launch angle thing most work with those pro elite athletes, even that, the angle is more of a result, My current coach is a very well respected in the area and has a lot of the best high school college aged players, we work a lot on the drills etc. But maybe it's time for a change?

              Comment


              • #8
                Really solid OP, Dirtberry. I'm not 100% sure where I got it, but within the past couple of months either an email or tweet from Coach Lisle/hitting vault had a graphic that showed something akin to a ball hit at a 10-14 degree launch angle in the MLB resulted in a .763 BA. That launch angle only accounted for 3 HR, but who wouldn't want to hit .763? I agree at the younger ages, it's about developing the ability to consistently contact the ball for a hard line drive. It's easy enough to adjust attack angle as players get a bit older/stronger.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Uncoach View Post
                  Really solid OP, Dirtberry. I'm not 100% sure where I got it, but within the past couple of months either an email or tweet from Coach Lisle/hitting vault had a graphic that showed something akin to a ball hit at a 10-14 degree launch angle in the MLB resulted in a .763 BA. That launch angle only accounted for 3 HR, but who wouldn't want to hit .763? I agree at the younger ages, it's about developing the ability to consistently contact the ball for a hard line drive. It's easy enough to adjust attack angle as players get a bit older/stronger.
                  exactly -30-35 degree launch will get you over the fence IF you can hit the ball hard enough, if not, it's a routine fly ball. A line drive 12-15 ft over the SS head is a base hit just about every time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by switchhitter View Post
                    My son's hitting coach is teaching him downward to create the back spin. I have been with the coach for 3 years, In games I just don't see the result, I always remind myself be patient, trust the process, but I am losing patience now. I understand the launch angle thing most work with those pro elite athletes, even that, the angle is more of a result, My current coach is a very well respected in the area and has a lot of the best high school college aged players, we work a lot on the drills etc. But maybe it's time for a change?
                    if he's playing tennis, then controlling spin on the ball is really important. In baseball, any hit a fraction under the center of mass will result in backspin.
                    http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/

                    If I were trying to spin it, I'd work on hooks and slices to fool the OF'ers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bluedawg View Post

                      if he's playing tennis, then controlling spin on the ball is really important. In baseball, any hit a fraction under the center of mass will result in backspin.
                      http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/

                      If I were trying to spin it, I'd work on hooks and slices to fool the OF'ers.
                      I was only able to hear Henry Aaron speak one time about hitting. During that speech which was down in Tennessee, he spoke about his hook or what some called, "Aaron's Hook." I don't think he is the one who came up with that term. Anyway, he felt that when he really "snapped" on the ball, he would see his ball hook toward the line. I can remember my assistant coach asking why he would want that since a large number of those types of balls go foul. Henry Aaron seemed to think it was representative of him crushing a ball. At least back in the day when he said that.
                      Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                      I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        baseabllmom,

                        “Can you help me understand what you mean by "pitch location contact". “
                        There are 4 types of batters. Pull or Spray oriented lefty's (Williams/Gwynn) and Pull or Spray oriented righties {Mcguirre/Cabrera).

                        Because the game is built to hit the ball to the right side for advancement, lefty's have a pass on being all pull but making it harder for them to make contact at outside locations.

                        For the same reason and predominance in outside located pitches practiced and performed, Righties need to hit the ball to the right side predominantly if their approach is Spray.

                        This is where youth righty batters fail when they think only in pull approach!

                        Pitchers, bye practicing and performing outside pitches predominantly and there being mostly righty batters, have the pitchers make mistakes in on lefty's that happen much less for righty's.

                        "pitch location contact" refers to how much Wrist Ulnar flexion/Elbow extension necessary for final drive to contact on outside then middle then in. When the pitch is outside, WUF is up to 1/3 extended where you contact towards the catcher more. When the pitch is Middle, WUF is 2/3 extended. When the pitch is in, WUF is fully extended and towards the pitcher more all causing the desired field direction.

                        “Are you talking about hitting back where it came from - going over first base on an outside pitch, pulling an inside pitch, and right back up the middle on one in between?
                        That's it, and your explanation is splendidly Occam's razor.

                        What do you mean by "think Motor skill aptitude"?
                        Every motor action people make there's a genetic makeup that randomly puts together kinetic chains that some people can perform immediately and well for that specific action, this all has mental and visual components I don't fully understand. This is why we used to get so many non-looking athletes in baseball. We used to call them “one tool wonders” where they Hit so well, they only need to trot. many have played that don't run well or play D. Same here with pitchers. We all have aptitude with each action. Generally, most high aptitude athletes have it in many actions. I could never understand why my best friend could shoot 9 out of 10 free throws and I could only hit 6 out of 10 and I practiced much more. My specialty was punting a tight spiral 70 yards in the air but did not realize at the time this was good even though nobody else could do it well then only played baseball after HS.

                        “My son (age 11) takes hitting lessons with an instructor that we like.”
                        The best thing an instructor can do is train them to train themselves!

                        “ The instructor actually argues that mimicking MLB swings can be detrimental to a youth player”
                        High motor aptitude youth athletes can actually do this and better, I've seen it many times but there are many MLB approaches, let's remember they all work, there is no cookie cutter approach no matter what you have been told. I may rant about the emphasis on Pop flies but not all of them are looking at it in that manor. I would say most are trying to create back spin line drives still where when they miss it by another few degrees and the ball leaves the yard.

                        “ the MLB hitter is a 1 in a million talent and has features to their swing that leverage that rare ability. What do you think? “
                        I think this is utter mega-hyperbole. There are many more good ones that got away for varied reasons than those that were given the opportunity, that's a fact!

                        Theuncoach,

                        Coach Lisle/hitting vault had a graphic that showed something akin to a ball hit at a 10-14 degree launch angle in the MLB resulted in a .763 BA. That launch angle only accounted for 3 HR, but who wouldn't want to hit .763? I agree at the younger ages, it's about developing the ability to consistently contact the ball for a hard line drive. It's easy enough to adjust attack angle as players get a bit older/stronger.
                        Wow, thats an incredible stat and a solid approach!

                        Cannonball,

                        I used to completely stay away from fast pitch because of that Slappy thing that I did not have experience with and thought a bigger swing would not work because it was not being used but since the change to full bodied swings that started about 10 years ago I have accepted many more girls and to a girl they are much better students than the boy's, what up there? Your posts help talk me in to it, Thx!

                        We used to look at Henry as a wrist freak who perfected the top hand approach like Mike Schmidt did. This made Henry's barrel so fast he would hit the outside of the ball causing fade by side and back spin.
                        At the time we thought this was wrong because everybody was learning staying inside the ball again another approach and why we should not be thinking all or nothing.
                        We were also indignant to his stance being ahead of the plate, now I'm teaching it.
                        Last edited by Dirtberry; 10-30-2019, 01:35 AM.
                        Primum non nocere

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Uncoach View Post
                          Really solid OP, Dirtberry. I'm not 100% sure where I got it, but within the past couple of months either an email or tweet from Coach Lisle/hitting vault had a graphic that showed something akin to a ball hit at a 10-14 degree launch angle in the MLB resulted in a .763 BA. That launch angle only accounted for 3 HR, but who wouldn't want to hit .763? I agree at the younger ages, it's about developing the ability to consistently contact the ball for a hard line drive. It's easy enough to adjust attack angle as players get a bit older/stronger.
                          LAs over 20 degrees are very dependent on EV. Basically over 20 degrees it is homer or bust with exception of a few low EV bloopers.

                          BA 20-45 degrees mlb this year:

                          >95 mph: .534
                          <95: .213
                          80 to 95: .094

                          for me the ideal goal is to hit a high liner around 15-20 degrees for kids 14 and older (preteen I'm fine with 0-10 degrees). This is because 15-20 BA is a little lower than 5-10 (600 for 15-20 vs 700 5-10) but you also will hit some doubles.

                          of course in a game you need to hit and it isn't as easy as in the cage but as a general goal I think being in the high liner range 15-20 is a good compromise between classic low liner approach and "try to hit 35 degree nukes".
                          I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                            baseabllmom,



                            There are 4 types of batters. Pull or Spray oriented lefty's (Williams/Gwynn) and Pull or Spray oriented righties {Mcguirre/Cabrera).

                            Because the game is built to hit the ball to the right side for advancement, lefty's have a pass on being all pull but making it harder for them to make contact at outside locations.

                            For the same reason and predominance in outside located pitches practiced and performed, Righties need to hit the ball to the right side predominantly if their approach is Spray.

                            This is where youth righty batters fail when they think only in pull approach!

                            Pitchers, bye practicing and performing outside pitches predominantly and there being mostly righty batters, have the pitchers make mistakes in on lefty's that happen much less for righty's.

                            "pitch location contact" refers to how much Wrist Ulnar flexion/Elbow extension necessary for final drive to contact on outside then middle then in. When the pitch is outside, WUF is up to 1/3 extended where you contact towards the catcher more. When the pitch is Middle, WUF is 2/3 extended. When the pitch is in, WUF is fully extended and towards the pitcher more all causing the desired field direction.



                            That's it, and your explanation is splendidly Occam's razor.



                            Every motor action people make there's a genetic makeup that randomly puts together kinetic chains that some people can perform immediately and well for that specific action, this all has mental and visual components I don't fully understand. This is why we used to get so many non-looking athletes in baseball. We used to call them “one tool wonders” where they Hit so well, they only need to trot. many have played that don't run well or play D. Same here with pitchers. We all have aptitude with each action. Generally, most high aptitude athletes have it in many actions. I could never understand why my best friend could shoot 9 out of 10 free throws and I could only hit 6 out of 10 and I practiced much more. My specialty was punting a tight spiral 70 yards in the air but did not realize at the time this was good even though nobody else could do it well then only played baseball after HS.



                            The best thing an instructor can do is train them to train themselves!



                            High motor aptitude youth athletes can actually do this and better, I've seen it many times but there are many MLB approaches, let's remember they all work, there is no cookie cutter approach no matter what you have been told. I may rant about the emphasis on Pop flies but not all of them are looking at it in that manor. I would say most are trying to create back spin line drives still where when they miss it by another few degrees and the ball leaves the yard.



                            I think this is utter mega-hyperbole. There are many more good ones that got away for varied reasons than those that were given the opportunity, that's a fact!

                            Theuncoach,



                            Wow, thats an incredible stat and a solid approach!

                            Cannonball,

                            I used to completely stay away from fast pitch because of that Slappy thing that I did not have experience with and thought a bigger swing would not work because it was not being used but since the change to full bodied swings that started about 10 years ago I have accepted many more girls and to a girl they are much better students than the boy's, what up there? Your posts help talk me in to it, Thx!

                            We used to look at Henry as a wrist freak who perfected the top hand approach like Mike Schmidt did. This made Henry's barrel so fast he would hit the outside of the ball causing fade by side and back spin.
                            At the time we thought this was wrong because everybody was learning staying inside the ball again another approach and why we should not be thinking all or nothing.
                            We were also indignant to his stance being ahead of the plate, now I'm teaching it
                            .
                            Bold above -- Dirt, that is why you are so good at it. Like so many of us here, we are evolving, learning, listening, ... For me, it is easy to tell those hitting coaches who are stagnant. KInd of "it is all that has worked in the past and it is all that will work" kind of mentality. IMO, our hitters deserve more. Often, we might hear stuff that we don't agree with. From there, and IMO, that helps us because it forces us to think about those things we teach that we most definitely do believe in. I think a lot of us are like a sponge. We take a lot in, ring it out and what is left is some pretty good stuff.
                            Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                            I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

                            Comment

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