Sheffield

[hiddengem]

A friend of mine said that Gary Sheffield has a cue, like Schmidt, to try and back spin the ball off the infield grass. Are these 2 guys rare cases of being able to use that "cue" and not chop the ball, or is there some validity to their thinking, that triggers something else to happen correctly? People have often said that if Sheffield would change his swing plane slightly that he could hit 45-50 Hr's not the 30-35 we are used to seeing. But still, to be able to hit 35+ jacks he's got to be doing something right.

Pictures and or video's of Sheffs' swing would be great.

[jsiggy]

cues vs. reality

Seems like it's just another cue which doesn't match reality. And another example of why using cues or form as opposed to function when trying to understand what is actually happening in a swing can be problematic.

Here's Sheffield trying to backspin the ball off the infield grass:

[hiddengem]

Seems like it's just another cue which doesn't match reality. And another example of why using cues or form as opposed to function when trying to understand what is actually happening in a swing can be problematic.

Here's Sheffield trying to backspin the ball off the infield grass:

Well there you have it. The thing I notice now after seeing Steve is what the front arm does just prior to swing launch. He does his little bat waggle and immediately before launching his front arm comes up into plane, very similar to B. Bonds.

Sig, do you have any side clips of him?

[fungo22]

You're baiting us, aren't you HG?

Interesting question. Once again, I'm speculating somewhat here, but I suspect that a lot of MLB hitters find the "swing down" or "stay on top of the ball" cues helpful in mitigating against bat drag ... especially those who set their "box" (and therefore "swing plane") and connect the bat to their rear shoulder as or after their rotation begins.

This movement causes the front elbow to rise and the rear elbow to drop. The fact that these two movements happen late - more or less at the same time their rotation initiates - makes them susceptible to "elbow slotting," bat drag and the tendency to drop the bat head under the flight of the pitch.

The notion of "swinging down - staying on top of the ball" prompts the body to instictively adjust/compensate so that their method of setting the box and efficiently connecting bat to the rear shoulder (in which front elbow is raised and back elbow dropped) does not result in inefficient movements connected to "elbow slotting and "weather vaning."

[hiddengem]

Interesting question. Once again, I'm speculating somewhat here, but I suspect that a lot of MLB hitters find the "swing down" or "stay on top of the ball" cues helpful in mitigating against bat drag ... especially those who set their "box" (and therefore "swing plane") and connect the bat to their rear shoulder as or after their rotation begins.

This movement causes the front elbow to rise and the rear elbow to drop. The fact that these two movements happen late - more or less at the same time their rotation initiates - makes them susceptible to "elbow slotting," bat drag and the tendency to drop the bat head under the flight of the pitch.

The notion of "swinging down - staying on top of the ball" prompts the body to instictively adjust/compensate so that their method of setting the box and efficiently connecting bat to the rear shoulder (in which front elbow is raised and back elbow dropped) does not result in inefficient movements connected to "elbow slotting and "weather vaning."

No baiting here, just observing. I mean it appears to me that Sheffield has much more "down" in his swing that say V. Guerrero or K. Griffey. No?

[hiddengem]

This is what I'm more used to seeing, and i think the others around here will agree.

[swingbuster]

The Sheffields swing is an extreme study in what I wrote about for a while. He is doing what somebody called the " hammer-lock drill. He throws the bat tip to 2B working the bottom hand under the top as he strides. He IS then accelerating the barrel back to the catcher as he gets back on plane and by the hand torque secondary to the lead elbow moving up and rear slotting.

He is exhibiting the ultimate CHP that matches his hip turn

Ruth, Bagwell. Piazza Sosa and host of others do a "light" version of this. It is advanced hand action that gets the barrel a running start before it enters the momentum plane of the shoulders and it does allow the hips to get ahead of the shoulders by delaying the upper body " Sheffields own words".

This was " foo- foo ed because it did not fit anywhere in the P-C-R system. In fairness, not sure it is a teach

CLemente exhibits a low finish on a high pitch. In the catcher view I find it very interesting to see his "lead elbow" fly back in the follow through behind his body and bent. I tried that and it is difficult. I think you will see that in Aarons clips with his "hammering top hand low finish " too

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38703&page=3

Bottom of thread


I will always believe that the " swing down" cues have more to do with not dropping the rear shoulder until weight transfer

see #8 & #9 cabrera http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro

See the elbow tip at the highest point when his front foot plants accepts weight. He might have the sense / feel that he can swing down from here but the down swing is NOT HIS GOAL

[Ohfor]

I will always believe...

...now there is an open kind of guy.

[Mark H]

Ruth, Bagwell. Piazza Sosa and host of others do a "light" version of this. It is advanced hand action that gets the barrel a running start before it enters the momentum plane of the shoulders and it does allow the hips to get ahead of the shoulders by delaying the upper body " Sheffields own words".

This was " foo- foo ed because it did not fit anywhere in the P-C-R system. In fairness, not sure it is a teach

I will always believe that the " swing down" cues have more to do with not dropping the rear shoulder until weight transfer

Whatever else this bat action may do it seems to me it almost forces the bottom hand arm to get in the swing plane.

As for dropping the rear shoulder before or after, I don't think of the rear shoulder dropping at all. I think of it as rotating on the swing plane. If the swing plane is not on a shoulder high pitch, the swing plane is going to be tilted and as a result the back shoulder will move down but that is a result not something to think about IMO.

As for swinging down to get backspin, I think telling this cue to a kid is a very bad idea. I know any given cue any given day with any given kid...but I'll find a different way to fix a problem and I will NOT ever mention this cue.

[swingbuster]

Whatever else this bat action may do it seems to me it almost forces the bottom hand arm to get in the swing plane.

Agreed

As for dropping the rear shoulder before or after, I don't think of the rear shoulder dropping at all. I think of it as rotating on the swing plane. If the swing plane is not on a shoulder high pitch, the swing plane is going to be tilted and as a result the back shoulder will move down but that is a result not something to think about IMO.

Agreed , but kids are told to swing level because they rotate their shoulders before front foot plant. Real life issues to be resolved in youth ball

As for swinging down to get backspin, I think telling this cue to a kid is a very bad idea. I know any given cue any given day with any given kid...but I'll find a different way to fix a problem and I will NOT ever mention this cue.

I have never used swing down and I agree it would likely be a disaster

[Steve Englishbey]

Very good observations Joe [jojab ] about Aarons' posture [ with visuals to point this out ] ----and this still here is very representative of what Aaron[and many others actually] looks like at swing initiation.

This is a very good representation of the kinds of "angles " that elite hitters create to initiate the swing.

steve

[emullin]

Aaron still

Steve E.

That's not at all the image of Aaron that I had in my mind. It looks like he's been to your clinic, "You've got to stick out your a$$!"
By the way, the girls are hitting the snot out of the ball, thanks again.

Ed

[hiddengem]

Steve and I agree that Sheffield and Aarons' type of swing is set up to crush the high pitch. Just pay attention to Sheffield this year and watch how well he handles the pitches up and in and up and away. But he doesn't do so well on the ball away and down a bit. His swing will tend to make him slice through those balls and pop them up.

Ken Griffey on the other hand, tends to get tied up on balls up and in but handles the balls down and down and away pretty darn good.

[jojab]

Actually...

Steve E.

That's not at all the image of Aaron that I had in my mind. It looks like he's been to your clinic, "You've got to stick out your a$$!"
By the way, the girls are hitting the snot out of the ball, thanks again.

Ed

Actually, Steve's been to Aaron's clinic. He's also been to every other high-level hitter's clinic that has been captured on video. That's what makes Steve so great - it is his ability to "see" and understand what high-level hitters actually do and then, equally as important, teach it to others.

By the way, that first still of Aaron is one that I show to kids that I coach when I'm trying to get them to understand posture. I also have one of Big Mac and Pujols in the exact same posture set-up. That way when I say, "stick your butt out", they know what I mean.

Joe

[pgibbons]

Here's a pdf of 47 Sheff swings.
http://www.corporatedrones.com/GaryS.pdf

The file's almost 2megs, so to avoid paying excessive bandwidth fees, I'll probably remove it from my server in a day or two - anyone who wants it, get it while you can

Unfortunately I don't have the money shot that shows a side view of Sheff(like the Aaron shot above), but this picture is still pretty cool...