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Getting on Top and Swinging Down

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  • Getting on Top and Swinging Down

    You go by the results you get. Gotta do what you gotta do.
    https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/05/03/kr...ubs-the-opener
    Major Figure/Internet Influencer

  • #2
    From the article:

    "​​​​​​The feeling he created is one of 'swinging down,' though that is more of a swing thought than a literal path."
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    • #3
      Good for Bryant. Great hitters like pitchers use analytics to make swing adjustments and counter vulnerabilities. I recall Trout made adjustments to the high FB kryptonite since 2015. He looks pretty damn comfortable mashing them now

      Comment


      • #4
        There was a video of getting an average joe to hit a 95 MPH pitch. I think it was David Peralta that said you want to get on top of the ball, because it will appear to rise, since the ball's not dying at all with the amount of spin generated on it.

        Kris Bryant staying crouched definitely made hitting high fastballs difficult. Those with a tall stance and narrow feet would swing down like he does, Trout, Jeter, Manny, Braun like the article suggested. Easy to see why the swing down has been alive for literal decades of swinging advice.

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        • #5
          When he entered, the game was set up for low pitches, and his high launch angle feasted on that. Now, pitchers adjusted and are throwing more high 4 seam fastballs. He changed his swing to hit them. I wonder if the scouting report will change now and give him more low pitches, so he'll struggle again? His approaches in the article seem to be suited for one type of pitch, after having an approach for another early in his career.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by skipper5 View Post
            From the article:

            "​​​​​​The feeling he created is one of 'swinging down,' though that is more of a swing thought than a literal path."
            Exactly. There's a stark difference of "feeling" something is a certain way vs actual reality that shows it is not.

            Now not saying that feeling something in order to do or perform something difficult or different is a problem...not at all..."Where the mind goes, the body will follow" isn't wrong. But when others attempt to take a "feeling", and try to literally transpose it into reality, and then go and teach that as how or what should be done is where the problem lies.

            So yes, IF one needs to think and/or feel that they need to swing down in order to "stay on top" of the ball that's fine...as long as you don't make that the actual swing path of taking the bat/barrel over the rear shoulder and "down to" the ball...which will more times than not just pound it into the ground out in front of the hitter somewhere.

            Bryant may think and/or feel he needs to swing down to get on top of the ball, but his bat/barrel still come around underneath his rear should to the ball. As do all MLB hitters' bat/barrel path...yes, even the ones who demo swinging "down to" with their bat coming over their rear shoulder...not one of them actually do it in their game swings.

            Yet we've still got guys teaching developing hitters to take the "knob/hands to the ball" from the launch position over the rear shoulder, because that's what they hear and see a couple pros doing in an interview...but not actually at the plate during a game.



            In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
              Exactly. There's a stark difference of "feeling" something is a certain way vs actual reality that shows it is not.

              Now not saying that feeling something in order to do or perform something difficult or different is a problem...not at all..."Where the mind goes, the body will follow" isn't wrong. But when others attempt to take a "feeling", and try to literally transpose it into reality, and then go and teach that as how or what should be done is where the problem lies.

              So yes, IF one needs to think and/or feel that they need to swing down in order to "stay on top" of the ball that's fine...as long as you don't make that the actual swing path of taking the bat/barrel over the rear shoulder and "down to" the ball...which will more times than not just pound it into the ground out in front of the hitter somewhere.

              Bryant may think and/or feel he needs to swing down to get on top of the ball, but his bat/barrel still come around underneath his rear should to the ball. As do all MLB hitters' bat/barrel path...yes, even the ones who demo swinging "down to" with their bat coming over their rear shoulder...not one of them actually do it in their game swings.

              Yet we've still got guys teaching developing hitters to take the "knob/hands to the ball" from the launch position over the rear shoulder, because that's what they hear and see a couple pros doing in an interview...but not actually at the plate during a game.
              This is a lot of the cause of the Twitter hitting wars. A lot of the hitting instructors on Twitter are teaching what actually happens in the swing. The old school guys then come around and talk down to them and discredit them and tell them they have no idea what they are talking about and then show the "knob/hands to ball" from the launch position. A bunch of these guys are former MLBers and because that is what they think is happening, everything else is nonsense. It was kind of entertaining to watch these arguments at first, but then it got tired and it started to get personnel.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                Exactly. There's a stark difference of "feeling" something is a certain way vs actual reality that shows it is not.

                Now not saying that feeling something in order to do or perform something difficult or different is a problem...not at all..."Where the mind goes, the body will follow" isn't wrong. But when others attempt to take a "feeling", and try to literally transpose it into reality, and then go and teach that as how or what should be done is where the problem lies.

                So yes, IF one needs to think and/or feel that they need to swing down in order to "stay on top" of the ball that's fine...as long as you don't make that the actual swing path of taking the bat/barrel over the rear shoulder and "down to" the ball...which will more times than not just pound it into the ground out in front of the hitter somewhere.

                Bryant may think and/or feel he needs to swing down to get on top of the ball, but his bat/barrel still come around underneath his rear should to the ball. As do all MLB hitters' bat/barrel path...yes, even the ones who demo swinging "down to" with their bat coming over their rear shoulder...not one of them actually do it in their game swings.

                Yet we've still got guys teaching developing hitters to take the "knob/hands to the ball" from the launch position over the rear shoulder, because that's what they hear and see a couple pros doing in an interview...but not actually at the plate during a game.


                There seems to be some confusion here between barrel path and hand path.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeah on that same vein, Mudivine could it be that 'knob/hands to the ball' be a teaching cue just like 'swing down' isn't to be taken literally but just a cue to get someone into the proper motion? When I swing it seems like getting the knob at least directed to the ball is exactly what I do as I go palm up palm down/elbow begins to slot. I don't pull the hands/knob to the ball, but more like Cannonball has said before I try to 'point the knob-deliver the barrel.'

                  Sorry I don't even know if I have a point in the above, rather it's an interesting idea about teaching cues that morph into something different. I had a little league coach that used to say 'chop wood.' As an adult I thought that was pretty silly as it would mean I'm swinging down. Until one day I actually swung an axe into a tree and discovered I didn't swing down at all but rather I had to keep the axe head close as it was so heavy and kept my back elbow in, and the axe head actually hit the tree right on plane if it were. Maybe he was right all along!

                  Mind you I suck at cutting down a tree, and hitting a baseball.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dcunited View Post
                    'swing down' isn't to be taken literally
                    haahhahahahahahaha

                    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dcunited View Post
                      Yeah on that same vein, Mudivine could it be that 'knob/hands to the ball' be a teaching cue just like 'swing down' isn't to be taken literally but just a cue to get someone into the proper motion? When I swing it seems like getting the knob at least directed to the ball is exactly what I do as I go palm up palm down/elbow begins to slot. I don't pull the hands/knob to the ball, but more like Cannonball has said before I try to 'point the knob-deliver the barrel.'

                      Sorry I don't even know if I have a point in the above, rather it's an interesting idea about teaching cues that morph into something different. I had a little league coach that used to say 'chop wood.' As an adult I thought that was pretty silly as it would mean I'm swinging down. Until one day I actually swung an axe into a tree and discovered I didn't swing down at all but rather I had to keep the axe head close as it was so heavy and kept my back elbow in, and the axe head actually hit the tree right on plane if it were. Maybe he was right all along!

                      Mind you I suck at cutting down a tree, and hitting a baseball.
                      Just take a look at some swings and you can see the right hand is swinging down and to the ball. but the bottom hand should be pulling to the side as needed in response to the pitch and usually the bottom hand will cause the bat and the top hand to realign itself and get on plane to smash the baseball. Focus on what your hands are doing with an axe compared to a bat and see if there's something amiss, I bet you there is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jamesd1628 View Post
                        There seems to be some confusion here between barrel path and hand path.
                        No, not at all. Taking the hands (or hand path) down to the ball that causes the bat/barrel path to be over the rear shoulder is incorrect no matter who says it or does it...




                        Even on pitches up high above the zone MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball that takes their bat/barrel over their rear shoulder to get to the ball as some like to demonstrate ...



                        It just doesn't happen. Sure, they might "feel" that that's what they do, or "think" they need to do, but in reality...not one MLB hitter actually does it that way.
                        In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mud with great insight and a quality post!

                          I've been fortunate to get to talk to various big leaguers when I was a HS baseball coach and my teams played at Busch Stadium. I was amazed at some of the stuff I heard. Go watch MLB station. You'll see some bizarre statements there at times. The other day, they did a breakdown of Lindor's swing to point out how he has fallen on hard times. They compared a 75 mph curveball from Adam Wainright to an 87 mph slider from some other MLB player as Lindor attempted to hit the ball. Then, their "experts" started showing the hit down on the ball stuff they seem to get wrong all of the time. You know, the chop wood swing. I was amazed that they wanted to put that out there given the reality of what a good swing is, that they were talking about Lindor getting out early against a quality curveball ...
                          Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

                          I am an ex expert. I've done this long enough to know that those who think that they know it all, know nothing.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mudvnine View Post
                            No, not at all. Taking the hands (or hand path) down to the ball that causes the bat/barrel path to be over the rear shoulder is incorrect no matter who says it or does it...




                            Even on pitches up high above the zone MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball that takes their bat/barrel over their rear shoulder to get to the ball as some like to demonstrate ...



                            It just doesn't happen. Sure, they might "feel" that that's what they do, or "think" they need to do, but in reality...not one MLB hitter actually does it that way.
                            The confusion arises because saying (A) "MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball", is very different from saying (B) "MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball [in a way] that takes their bat/barrel over their rear shoulder". I think you will find much more agreement on statement (B) than you will on statement (A). The question is, which statement are you making?

                            You seem to think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it's impossible to take the hand/knob to the ball in way that does not take the bat/barrel over the rear should (i.e., that the only way to take the hands/knob to the ball is take the bat/barrel over the rear shoulder). If that's what you think, I would have to disagree. There is more than one way to throw the hands/knob at the ball, including ways that produce the barrel path that you like.

                            When various MLB players demonstrate hands/knob to the ball, (i) they are talking about and demonstrating the hand path, and not addressing the barrel path, and (ii) they are typically performing the demonstration based on a stationary ball sitting on tee. As we've discussed before, when a batter takes a full swing (including forcibly thrusting the hands at the ball and fully torqueing the hips) at a live pitch, the bat path will differ from the demonstration, even though they are still throwing their hands at the ball. I believe that happens for two reasons. First, in a live swing, the ball is moving toward the hitter horizontally in space, not sitting on a tee; thus the path of the hands toward that ball will necessarily be different than what it would be toward a stationary ball on a tee. Secondly, when the hips are incorporated, the throwing of the hands/knob necessarily becomes more horizontal as compared to the more vertical/down hand path shown in the demonstrations. Throwing the hands/knob at a ball moving at you horizontally, together with the more horizontal throwing of the hands/knob produced by rotational torque, results in the bat path you're looking for. But they are still throwing their hands/knob at the ball.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jamesd1628 View Post
                              The confusion arises because saying (A) "MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball", is very different from saying (B) "MLB hitters don't take their hand/knob to the ball [in a way] that takes their bat/barrel over their rear shoulder". I think you will find much more agreement on statement (B) than you will on statement (A). The question is, which statement are you making?

                              You seem to think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that it's impossible to take the hand/knob to the ball in way that does not take the bat/barrel over the rear should (i.e., that the only way to take the hands/knob to the ball is take the bat/barrel over the rear shoulder). If that's what you think, I would have to disagree. There is more than one way to throw the hands/knob at the ball, including ways that produce the barrel path that you like.

                              When various MLB players demonstrate hands/knob to the ball, (i) they are talking about and demonstrating the hand path, and not addressing the barrel path, and (ii) they are typically performing the demonstration based on a stationary ball sitting on tee. As we've discussed before, when a batter takes a full swing (including forcibly thrusting the hands at the ball and fully torqueing the hips) at a live pitch, the bat path will differ from the demonstration, even though they are still throwing their hands at the ball. I believe that happens for two reasons. First, in a live swing, the ball is moving toward the hitter horizontally in space, not sitting on a tee; thus the path of the hands toward that ball will necessarily be different than what it would be toward a stationary ball on a tee. Secondly, when the hips are incorporated, the throwing of the hands/knob necessarily becomes more horizontal as compared to the more vertical/down hand path shown in the demonstrations. Throwing the hands/knob at a ball moving at you horizontally, together with the more horizontal throwing of the hands/knob produced by rotational torque, results in the bat path you're looking for. But they are still throwing their hands/knob at the ball.
                              Yeah, you can try to twist it however you like or want, but the fact remains; that it is physically impossible to take the hand/knob starting at or above the rear shoulder, from point A to point B on a straight or direct path to the ball as is always what's demoed...and what coaches/parents unsuspectingly end up having their hitters swing like when trying to teach it as a result of that...moving ball or not.



                              I don't have a problem with identifying the knob as a target sight as CB does when he coaches, "Point the knob deliver the barrel", that's fine. Some guys years back talked about putting a flashlight or laser in the knob, and flashing/slicing the ball with the light or laser as it came in...OK, that's fine also. But as soon as you start using the word "to" as a preposition of moving the hands/knob "to" the ball from the top handset is where that teaching breaks down...as the first move of the hands/knob should never be directly "down to" or towards the ball as is demoed and thus later coached.
                              In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

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