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  • 7yo swing analysis

    Looking for some help to make sure I am heading down the right direction with my sons swing. I was hoping to help him improve but I am not seeing any promising results. We hit almost daily for the last 2-3 months, yet we can't seem to fix his bat drag outside the tee. Tee swings, keeping the box helps some, also over-exaggerating back elbow way up at toe touch also helps, but nothing transitions to front toss/BP. I also feel he has something else going on, where his upper body rotates, completely facing the pitcher, but his hands drag behind, which makes his bat drag even more. See pic for what I am referring too. I have the tee a little to deep, but we were working outside pitch.

    Attached is a link to a four swings I picked, hits 2 good, swing miss and 1 oppo. I tried to get a good variety. I told him forget everything I have taught you, just hit the ball hard. I am 15-20 ft away throwing underhand front toss. I can stand 100ft away and hit my son in the chest playing catch nearly every time, yet I CANNOT throw strikes for BP to him. Something in my head, its soooo frustrating........I digress.


    Major issues(address first)
    • Bat Drag(In no way am I saying the below solutions do not work, they require adequate time, reps to muscle memory, proper teaching and communication = student understanding...etc.
      • We have tried Songs "Secret youth hitting drill" Mainly, elbow up at toe touch. Its a struggle for him but if its up, no drag.
      • Muds Hit the ball with rear hip, impossible to have bat drag.........
      • CannonBall Tip n Rip. The kids think its funny when I say pretend to tap dad on the head with the barrel before you hit the ball
      • Keep the box as long as you can
      • barrel on deltoid, neck, head,already slotted elbow as Epstein demos.
      • I tried to get him to initiate his leg load and stride first vs hands first. As you stride forward, THEN coil hands back/load.
    • upswing
      • He averages 4 degrees upswing(blast sensor), and at his level(kid pitch) I would say you want even more then 10 degrees(ball drops a lot), but needless to say 4 degrees isn't enough
        • I have discussed and demonstrated tilting to get on plane briefly, but more focused on his bat drag.
    • Keep head still , he seems to move it back towards catcher about 3 inches from heel plant to contact

    Minor issues(down the road)
    • back foot needs to point at the plate, not toward catcher
    • firm up front side at contact
    • Separation between two halves, as stated in detail by Al_Oha scap thread
    • Rolls wrists early, unfinished look to his swing, the bat really deflects off the ball.


    Although the list looks long, I assume one upstream change will fix multiple downstream issues.

    Please let me know your thoughts, where to start, if I am on the right track...etc.

    Thank you for any input!

    contact.png
    Last edited by nobunting; 06-10-2021, 09:31 AM.

  • #2
    3 issues:
    1. the stride - he doesnt really stride forward with the back leg (blue line). His head (edit:the center of his neck) should be 2-4 inches further toward the pitcher. He strides by reaching with the front leg.
    [try dry strides, and keep his front knee from rolling over, then look down check the mark you make]
    2021-0610-stride-001.jpg
    2. the rear forearm is as you noted, not flat (red line above) - causing bat drag (green line below is the result)
    [again dry strides, and pull the back elbow back like a bow]

    3. when he swings forward (toe touch to hip slot), he doesn't drive his back shoulder/elbow down to his hip (see yellow line)
    [take it about 4 inches further down-this will make a huge difference][dry swing from toe touch to hip slot]

    2021-0610-drag-001.jpg
    Last edited by songtitle; 06-11-2021, 05:20 AM.
    efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

    Comment


    • #3
      He looks pretty good for a 7 year old. I wouldn’t get to technical and try to get him to have the perfect swing. Your just going to end up frustrating both of you. I would just have him keep his head on the ball and have him focus on hitting the ball hard. His swing will constantly change as he goes through various growth changes. Almost every kid goes through a bat drag at that age but they will grow out of it as they get stronger. Mostly make sure he’s having fun at this age!

      Comment


      • #4

        Give any amateur a bat, and they will all swing the same way: It is a natural, pre-wired, inborn trait. ROTATE and SWAT would be an apt description in describing the goal.

        When we are given a litany of a list just as the one below, we are trying to fit a square in a round hole.
        Originally posted by songtitle View Post
        3 big problems:
        1. the stride - he doesnt really stride forward with the back leg......

        2. the rear forearm is as you noted, not flat - causing bat drag..

        3. when he swings forward (toe touch to hip slot), he doesn't drive his back shoulder/elbow down to his hip (see yellow line)
        ...

        2021-0610-drag-001.jpg
        Such prescription lacks the understanding that the elite create a swing through a FUNDAMENTALLY different mechanism. SCAPULAR LOADING and UNLOADING was written to emphasize that difference.

        The ELITE TWIST fo PUNCH. This is Ramirez in his high school days... Observe how he snaps to the ball with a punch.

        mannyhs3.gif
        This is the same hitter that does this in his hesitation......
        MannyHesitationDrill.gif
        If you do not see what Ramirez is doing in the drill, then you have yet to understand what he did in high school let alone PRESCRIBE instruction into the high level pattern. You will need to un-wire what has been pre-wired: The GOAL at high level is drastically different from the amateur.

        GOAL at high level is drastically distinct from the amateur.

        This recommendation would be appropriate:
        Originally posted by ArnoldZane View Post
        I wouldn’t get to technical and try to get him to have the perfect swing. Your just going to end up frustrating both of you. I would just have him keep his head on the ball and have him focus on hitting the ball hard.
        But what I will add in PARALLEL to the game experience: Give your young player a speed stick to punch at wiffle balls being tossed. Have your player figure how out to recruit and organize the lower half to snap at the ball quickly. No specifics, but a GOAL TO PUNCH. Make your player feel the punch from the CHEST, NOT THE HANDS. Throw the ball at varying pace and locations from close range (no time to rotate and swat); throw balks and see how your player responds with a hesitation. Film it. See if your player can reproduce what young Ramirez was doing. Once your player has the strength and aptitude, replace the speed stick with a real bat.
        Last edited by Al_Oha; 06-10-2021, 12:34 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ArnoldZane View Post
          Almost every kid goes through a bat drag at that age but they will grow out of it as they get stronger.
          Who are these kids that 'grow out of it'? They don't. They no longer play as they advance.

          Gaining strength will not fix a technique issue.
          efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by songtitle View Post
            Who are these kids that 'grow out of it'? They don't. They no longer play as they advance.

            Gaining strength will not fix a technique issue.
            would you not agree that almost all kids have bat drag when first starting out? And if so how do most grow out of it then. They figure it out somehow.... they get stronger, better coordination/motor skills. Of course not all grow out of it, but I believe a majority do. Some sooner than others.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by songtitle View Post
              3 issues:
              1. the stride - he doesnt really stride forward with the back leg (blue line). His head should be 2-4 inches further toward the pitcher. He strides by reaching with the front leg.
              [try dry strides, and keep his front knee from rolling over, then look down check the mark you make]
              2021-0610-stride-001.jpg
              2. the rear forearm is as you noted, not flat (red line above) - causing bat drag (green line below is the result)
              [again dry strides, and pull the back elbow back like a bow]

              3. when he swings forward (toe touch to hip slot), he doesn't drive his back shoulder/elbow down to his hip (see yellow line)
              [take it about 4 inches further down-this will make a huge difference][dry swing from toe touch to hip slot]

              2021-0610-drag-001.jpg
              1. I am not sure I see this. My sons head seems to be pretty close to the center of his body, between his feet. I see donaldson and Cabrera the same, Pujos head is more towards front leg(as you seem to be recommending), Correa head is more towards rear leg. I do see what you are saying about not stepping with the back leg, we have worked on this briefly in the past, but I feel(maybe wrong) this is a lower priority issue.
              2. Agreed, this is number 1 for me to fix IMO, we do pull the slingshot back with rear arm
              3. I actually tell him to resist the rear elbow down as long as he can, to attempt to accommodate what he "natural, pre-wired, inborn trait" wants to do, which his drag or pull the bat, leading with both elbows, to the target. This does encourage me to explore lowering his hands, and keep them in tight to his chest, which may actually deter his rear elbow from sneaking into lead the hands.

              Thanks for the reply Song. Congrats on the improvements on efastball.com website. (https and mobile friendly)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ArnoldZane View Post

                would you not agree that almost all kids have bat drag when first starting out? And if so how do most grow out of it then. They figure it out somehow.... they get stronger, better coordination/motor skills. Of course not all grow out of it, but I believe a majority do. Some sooner than others.
                Arnold, thank you for your kind words in your first post. I do have to catch myself at times when I stop making it fun. Reviewing his swings, there are times I can see in his face he is not having fun and ready to be done. But he is an amazing kid that will always try to due what Dad says.

                If I may speak for song, he agrees 99% of youth hitters have bat drag, but they prematurely end their career due to this fatal flaw. Those that don't have it, or have corrected it, continue to play at higher levels, which may lead us to believe older kids, higher level have will grown out of it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Song
                  3 issues:
                  1. the stride - he doesnt really stride forward with the back leg (blue line). His head should be 2-4 inches further toward the pitcher. He strides by reaching with the front leg.
                  [try dry strides, and keep his front knee from rolling over, then look down check the mark you make]
                  1. Thanks for adding the picture, I see you are comparing where his head is at toe touch and not heal plant. It seems that the majority of Elites continue moving their head forward until heel plant, so that is the checkpoint I using to judge my son's head position.
                  Also, can you explain "front knee from rolling over"?? Does that mean keeping the coil, resist front knee turning to pitcher?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Al_Oha View Post

                    Give any amateur a bat, and they will all swing the same way: It is a natural, pre-wired, inborn trait. ROTATE and SWAT would be an apt description in describing the goal.

                    When we are given a litany of a list just as the one below, we are trying to fit a square in a round hole.


                    Such prescription lacks the understanding that the elite create a swing through a FUNDAMENTALLY different mechanism. SCAPULAR LOADING and UNLOADING was written to emphasize that difference.

                    The ELITE TWIST fo PUNCH. This is Ramirez in his high school days... Observe how he snaps to the ball with a punch.

                    mannyhs3.gif
                    This is the same hitter that does this in his hesitation......
                    MannyHesitationDrill.gif
                    If you do not see what Ramirez is doing in the drill, then you have yet to understand what he did in high school let alone PRESCRIBE instruction into the high level pattern. You will need to un-wire what has been pre-wired: The GOAL at high level is drastically different from the amateur.

                    GOAL at high level is drastically distinct from the amateur.

                    This recommendation would be appropriate:


                    But what I will add in PARALLEL to the game experience: Give your young player a speed stick to punch at wiffle balls being tossed. Have your player figure how out to recruit and organize the lower half to snap at the ball quickly. No specifics, but a GOAL TO PUNCH. Make your player feel the punch from the CHEST, NOT THE HANDS. Throw the ball at varying pace and locations from close range (no time to rotate and swat); throw balks and see how your player responds with a hesitation. Film it. See if your player can reproduce what young Ramirez was doing. Once your player has the strength and aptitude, replace the speed stick with a real bat.
                    Thanks Al

                    I believe I know what we are supposed to see in the Manny Hesitation Drill as I have read through it many times. I always end up with over 100 tabs in 3 different web browsers haha.
                    Manny is consciously practicing separation between upper and lower halfs. Lower half fires while upper resists at the scap, creating torsion, not losing power. Donaldson does this as well with his 45 degree separation line between shoulder and the line from his hip. When it is time to swing he leverages the 2nd axis AKA SCIP(scapula and hip) axis and roundhouses his shoulder to punch to the ball(across the chest). Thats going from memory and extremely dumbed down but hopefully the gist of it.



                    Al, can you explain the speed stick and wiffle ball exercise differently? Or maybe provide a visual for us dummies I am very interested in trying this and I feel I have read nearly every one of your posts, I don't recall you mentioning this. When you say speed stick, something like this?? https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p...qckstck08xxtra
                    Punching with the speed stick(bat) from the chest, this sounds like how a boxer would through a jab, but surely I am confusing it. Can you elaborate please. My wheels are turning as I type this.
                    Is this similar to the guy wearing the funky "hit with the hips" tool, where we see him at the end learning to whip it with his lower body while his upper body counteracts or reverses its direction to create more whip with the lower? Here is the link https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...58#post3106958 although it has been discussed in other threads as well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mechanics aside, and this may sound trivial, but have you tried playing games (wiffle ball, etc) with him? In my personal experience (and it may be mine only) boys (I have a 6 YO boy and an 11 YO girl currently playing) respond better at that age (and are more interested in) to goal oriented activities. The only thing I tell my 6 YO son is to make sure he gets into a good stance while my 11 YO girl at that age was more receptive to drills, etc (a bit less receptive now because she thinks she knows it all but that is a different story for a different day..) I do also just pitch BP to him but he seems to get a lot more (and put out better swings) when we play a game and he is trying to score a run by hitting a double or a triple etc (determined by how he hits it). My kid's swing is not perfect by any means..just figured I would share.

                      Also with regards to throwing BP, I would buy an L-screen and sit on a bucket behind it and throw overhand to him from 15 feet away if you can.

                      Good luck...have fun.
                      Last edited by pattar; 06-11-2021, 03:40 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nobunting View Post

                        1. I am not sure I see this. My sons head seems to be pretty close to the center of his body, between his feet.
                        Don't look at his head. Look at the center of the neck on son, Donaldson, etc. Yours (the blue line) is only an inch or two past the back foot.

                        "can you explain "front knee from rolling over"?? Does that mean keeping the coil, resist front knee turning to pitcher?"
                        yes

                        ". I actually tell him to resist the rear elbow down as long as he can,"
                        as soon as his front knee rolls over, you can no longer resist. It just comes down. But, after toe touch, when it starts to go, you want it to go all the way to the belt.
                        If you don't go all the way down/around, it leads to lunging and spinning, and less launch angle. The correct way is significantly more powerful. Try it yourself, you will immediately feel it.
                        Last edited by songtitle; 06-11-2021, 05:19 AM.
                        efastball.com - hitting and pitching fact checker

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pattar View Post
                          Mechanics aside, and this may sound trivial, but have you tried playing games (wiffle ball, etc) with him? In my personal experience (and it may be mine only) boys (I have a 6 YO boy and an 11 YO girl currently playing) respond better at that age (and are more interested in) to goal oriented activities. The only thing I tell my 6 YO son is to make sure he gets into a good stance while my 11 YO girl at that age was more receptive to drills, etc (a bit less receptive now because she thinks she knows it all but that is a different story for a different day..) I do also just pitch BP to him but he seems to get a lot more (and put out better swings) when we play a game and he is trying to score a run by hitting a double or a triple etc (determined by how he hits it). My kid's swing is not perfect by any means..just figured I would share.

                          Also with regards to throwing BP, I would buy an L-screen and sit on a bucket behind it and throw overhand to him from 15 feet away if you can.

                          Good luck...have fun.
                          I appreciate the post. We play games quite often and he enjoys them. Are you more or less mentioning this to keep him interested and having fun??

                          Our main goal is to get rid of that bat drag.

                          HaHa, I have an L-screen and have been 10-15ft away and still struggle. Its a mental issue I have, Rupe Baker syndrome. I played baseball for 22 years, could never throw BP. I am about to try and throwing left handed My kids rip on me for it which can get pretty entertaining.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nobunting View Post

                            I appreciate the post. We play games quite often and he enjoys them. Are you more or less mentioning this to keep him interested and having fun??
                            Interest/fun is part of it of course. The other part of it is some kids at that age may have a hard time incorporating instruction and may be better off trying to organize their bodies via external cues.

                            Comment

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