When it all comes together!

[ShawnB]

I went on a binge of studying the swing. Even looked at some old clips of myself and could see what I was doing well and not well.

It all came together, all the information that I once heard or thought of all came together.

Not all swings are created equally. There is no such thing as a ML swing. Some have great swings and others are just OK. When I say there is no such thing as ML swing, I mean you don't have to gifted or born to have a good swing. Having a good swing with not mean you will be great or reach the ML level. Being athletic might help and perhaps they can get the muscles to do things not everyone can do. But', if your following any of Jim Dixon's theory and built your assumptions after his theory, you are more then likely going to be as wrong as Dixon. Dixon never helped a single hitter. His theory that you don't use the arm/hands or the legs and some how a movement system does all of that for you, is deeply flawed. No one can lay claim that they have produced a ML hitter. And if Sean Dixon new information is based on any of the information from his father, then I don't even want to hear or see it.

If my thinking is right, I would have to field test it first, then a swing is very simple. If I'm right there is no reason why almost anybody can't have a good swing or mechanics.

There is alot of information on what a is good swing. And while there are many fine points made about the swing, seldom have I heard it all put together. And sometimes they really don't know. And sometimes the information will do absolutely nothing to help. Only if the student did it the correct way, regardless of the information, would that information be of any value. There might be better ways of doing it, I think there is better way.

Perhaps the most important factor, is what triggers the swing? And we could say that everything up until the swing is acting as a trigger. Which would be correct. But, there is an action which all of that is done must build up. What is this action, what really triggers the swing?

[Encinitas]

All ears Shawn. Is this going to be at your site?

[ShawnB]

It's nothing new as I've heard it many times. Peavy and Schmidt say's it's the hands, Don Slaught said it was the elbow.

Tom says arm action is king. Although there is no one specific arm action. There might be better ways of doing it.

I would lean more towards the elbow initiates the swing, but the top hand is involved.

The lowering of the elbow, is the start of swing. The force acting on the top hand/bat is downward. This downward force causes the back knee to flex as the hips begin, Creating a natural sitting action. And while not all arm action are exactly the same, the lowering of the elbow can (IMO) create natural rotation. This goes back many years, it's a top/down execution.

While there are many fine information about the swing, nothing should interfere with coordination. If something isn't working correctly then it's
more then liking you are creating the problem.

You hear alot about PLT, etc.,. Mankin and others, think that you can look at pitchers view and see the bat moving backwards prior to foot plant. Mankin even said this was prior to rotation.

Any direction that the top hand moves in is caused by the elbow pulling it that direction. And every knows you can't swing until foot plant, when the shoulders really begin to turn. You cannot really try to swing until foot plant. Any attempt to produce any type of force that results in the swinging action before foot plant, would create mis directed forces.

We could go on and on, and I can show you anything you want to see with video. You want to see someone swinging backwards, I can show it.

Swingbuilder is right it is about the hands/hips. You use everything in a swing. Everyone would have to figure out what the means to them.

Questions?

[Slapper23]

Dang Shawn, is this really you talking? I agree with the gist of your arguement. I think hand/arm action works to synchronize the timing and sequencing of the swing. Top down control of a bottom up sequencing of movements involved in creating and transferring momentum/energy up the chain. I always say 'Hips then hands', but in reality it is 'hands then hips.'

The hips/core provide the big muscle power, while the arms/hands connect into torso rotation coming out of the previous running start of the upper torso. Stretch and fire is created through the combination of running start and lateral tilt, which causes the upper torso to resist turning prematurely - while the lower torso rotation is underway as hips lead the way. Upper and lower torso working against the middle. But controlled/sychronized by what the hands and arms want to do.

Thanks for your input.
Mike

[Ursa Major]

Shawn said: If my thinking is right, I would have to field test it first, then a swing is very simple. If I'm right there is no reason why almost anybody can't have a good swing or mechanics.

I'd be really careful, dude. This sounds sort of like the old adventure movies where the weatherbeaten old sourdough limps into camp gasping, "I've found Shangri-la-- a whole city of gold with a library with answers to all the world's questions! All you have to do is to go to ...." Then.... PPPHHHHTTTTtttttttttttt! An arrow shoots out of the darkness and kills him on the spot. So, if you've really got the answer to all questions on hitting ... well, don't pre-pay for any long term dance lessons.

But seriously, unless you're talking about really high level hitters (and maybe even if you are), the issue about whether it's top down or bottom up is lost on just about every hitter. There are so many impediments to a coach getting them where they need to be that these distinctions are of little help to them. The teaching technique is as important as the kinesthesiological underpinnings.

And, with all due respect, bouncing around as you have talking about all the various truths of hittings isn't something that will help build a swing in most kids. Don't get me wrong -- I realize that such is not exactly what you intended by your paragraph. But it's a little unclear to at least me (who follows many of these debates) what this terrific set of swing cues really mean. (Plus, in your excitement, you inserted a lot of words that are different from what you apparently mean.)

So, might I kindly suggest that you back up and try to late out a little more hierarchically (i.e., in a logical order) what it is you propose that we all do in trying to teach a better swing. And, until you do, please put on a kevlar vest.... :cap: I'm rooting for you to make it.

[Slapper23]

Ursa,

You are so right about those coaching impediments. I think the teacher/coach needs to have a clear picture/understanding of how the swing unfolds and then simpify it in a way kids can grasp. And this process is constantly being improved hopefully, as the instructor continues learning. I believe arms and hands help to synchronize the swing sequence. I may not tell the kid that but I will work with them in a way that progresses along those lines. The teaching technique is important, as you point out, so I'm the one that this stuff makes a difference to. Hopefully, it helps translate into success for my players. In a HS coaching setting with limited time to make hitting improvements, as a coach you streamline and combine things to get the most bang for the buck. I want to be right about this stuff and what Shawn is describing I mostly agree with. Kevlar vests be damned!

Mike

[ShawnB]

It doesn't matter what you think, none of this is new information. If anything I can see how everything fits together now, based of past experiments and all the information I have read and seen.

[ShawnB]

Ursa,

I just wanted to say that there is such a thing as slotting, letting gravity do the work, etc. In all these cases the arms/hand are lifeless and lowering the elbow or the hands/elbow starting the swing would be worthless information.

Even in the ML all swings are not equal and you can find some slop in the swing.

[Swing Coach]

clarification

There are many, many ways that people try to teach the swing to someone else...and many, many opinions of how it should be done and why.

However, there is one major league swing pattern....one that I have studied using high speed video software....and 90 percent of these swings are nearly identical from toe touch to contact.

So there really is one major league swing pattern because nearly all major leaguers look the same when looked at on video. And it looks quite different than 80 percent of the coaches in America teach. And that MLB pattern is what I strive to teach my students, no matter how gifted they are. Yes they are in the big leagues because they are gifted and talented, but they are also there because they have mastered a swing that maximizes success.

I hate the bogus excuse that "major leaguers are so talented they can get away with a lot of slop or bad mechanics." It just ain't true. That's a myth created in people's minds that don't know how to teach it like the big guys do it.


SC

[Drill]

There are many, many ways that people try to teach the swing to someone else...and many, many opinions of how it should be done and why.

However, there is one major league swing pattern....one that I have studied using high speed video software....and 90 percent of these swings are nearly identical from toe touch to contact.

So there really is one major league swing pattern because nearly all major leaguers look the same when looked at on video. And it looks quite different than 80 percent of the coaches in America teach. And that MLB pattern is what I strive to teach my students, no matter how gifted they are. Yes they are in the big leagues because they are gifted and talented, but they are also there because they have mastered a swing that maximizes success.

I hate the bogus excuse that "major leaguers are so talented they can get away with a lot of slop or bad mechanics." It just ain't true. That's a myth created in people's minds that don't know how to teach it like the big guys do it.


SC

Good post


But I am afraid you will get a few people asking where they can get one of those MLB can openers. Grin! This does not mean I disagree with your post I find it a broad stroke that some people may take offence to. There way is the only way to teach the swing.


respectfully yours,

drill


PS one thing good about this site is fishing is in season year round.

[ShawnB]

I should not have said Jim Dixon was wrong, what I should have that using is old information which he himself said was wrong, might not you in developing or working with a hitter. Jim first thought that he could reproduce the ML swing through mechanics, in which his methods were somewhat bizzare if you have seen his old videos. Jim lasted inormation which few of you know about was to attempt to move using what he called the automatic system and all the information on mechanics would do nothing but use what he called the controlled system. When he came out with his new information he thought that he had the answer and it turned out that he hadn't successully applied to swinging or throwing when he said he had the answer.

I shouldn't have said that Jim was wrong. He had and made some unique discorivies on how a ML hitter or pitcher used their body. And if Sean Dixon has in indeed found out a way to create better movement in which will create a better swing, I would be interested in seeing first hand. The question is has actually found out something or is it just another attempt at making it look good. Only time will time because he says is having some success with some hitters. The last time I saw Sean swing a bat where he was supposed to using the automatic system, it took about ten years to perform the action, weight shift stride, and then finally swing.

Anyways I will not say anybody is wrong about anything ever again. This goes for Mankin as well, because he actually was another one who made me look at the swing in a different way. Along with Jim Dixon, I took what I knew at the time about his old information and studied some of the same stuff he did. Which lead me to believe the torso was very important and powered to swing. This also lead to the idea that the swing was generated from the middle.

There was a guy that also made some interesting observations from his coaching days. I bought his book at one time, but can't remember his name and I no longer have the book. But, in it he classified be such as introverted, ect..

There is another guy from Japan that I saw and heard about what he thought was happening. And he said something that was very interesting. He said hitters and pitchers twisted their bodies and said most just think it's about rotation. This is a very good and interesting point. The ML swing that we all strive to teach isn't all about rotation. Some say that separation is good, and some are saying we don't worry about seperation. I ML hitter (and fastpitch hitters do this as well, even they don't also look as appealing compared to a guy) rotates the hips early in swing, how far they rotate is different between hitters, some appear to be creating greater separation. Their hips as we say do their job very early, the rest of the swing is about the body untwisting and using the front leg to unload the twist. They all have a swinging gate rotation.

There is alot of very good things that have been said about the ML and the biomechanics of it all are correct. And many, many people have said very good things about what is happening.

Here's the things, what Jim Dixon should have explained better was the Puller, Spinner, and whiper (whipping being the best thing. Now I don't know if this applying to every hitter, but what we mostly see are the Spinners and Pullers. And I don't yet if you can change from one or the other. For example I now that I'm a puller, and since I'm no longer is shape and me core is completely shot, that all I can do. I now know why my front leg is dead (doesn't extend quicly enough) and while trying to use it more helps it's really not issue. The last time I checked my batspeed it was at 70, but like I said If reached an age where what ability I did have is gone. I did once apply some information on using my hips, core, torso, in my swing, and I wasn't taking a stride (just balance) or doing any loading of this or that. I was just trying to involve my torso and hips in the swing with some different thoughts. I wish I had video of those swings because I hit a mac of 88 mph. Did I change how I used my body, did I bacome more like a spinner? Which is better then what I'm doing now, just pulling. I've seen some strange stuff on the internet, and I don't that everyone is a pullers, spinner. I do know that as a puller I create separation, which does absolutely nothing for the swing (my swing).

And while Mankin doesn't understand this stuff, he made some interesting observations. He said that he thought everyone was rotating just fine and what they lacked was transfer mechanics, and that force should be applied all the way through the swing. In mechanical terms if felt young hitters rotated just fine and it was their transfer mechanics that was the difference. He also has more interesting points that I will touch on later. From Jack work came the idea of connection, Tom and I talked to Jack when he first started about transfer mechanics which is basically staying connected.

And there have many good ideas, such as just hold onto the bat and turn like Hell.

The question is what is the hitter we are looking at actually doing, what abilities to they have. I haven't checked everyone out yet, but the so called good hitters that I filmed, fastpitch. Are rotating like hell, how they swing is different, some keep the bat behind them until the body had rotated in some cases rather far, and then swing. And other, swing while they rotated. In any case rotation isn't issue, but rather they are rotated the only way they know how, and the is to use the hips and both legs at the same time to rotate the body as a single block. Jack Mankin is always questioning and how rotation works and his idea is how most "good" hitter we see rotate, it is not how a ML hitter rotates, in which the pivot point for the body is the front hip/leg.

And I'll have more to say later on who is right and who is wrong. When we should be asking ourselfs what is the hitter your working actually doing. If you turn as a single for example trying to become more of swinging gate, might not help much and might affect how you rotate.

I could go on and on, time to take a break, and see what you all think.

(please excuse all the typing errors, I will back and correct what doesn't make sense later).

[callyjr]

There are many, many ways that people try to teach the swing to someone else...and many, many opinions of how it should be done and why.

However, there is one major league swing pattern....one that I have studied using high speed video software....and 90 percent of these swings are nearly identical from toe touch to contact.

So there really is one major league swing pattern because nearly all major leaguers look the same when looked at on video. And it looks quite different than 80 percent of the coaches in America teach. And that MLB pattern is what I strive to teach my students, no matter how gifted they are. Yes they are in the big leagues because they are gifted and talented, but they are also there because they have mastered a swing that maximizes success.

I hate the bogus excuse that "major leaguers are so talented they can get away with a lot of slop or bad mechanics." It just ain't true. That's a myth created in people's minds that don't know how to teach it like the big guys do it.


SC

i have to agree here, once at foot plant most mlb swings are very much the same, some better the others but most are the same.

[Encinitas]

There is not much we can really say yet as it's not clear where you stand.