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  • Hand Action - Mike Schmidt.

    The following is from the book “The Mike Schmidt Study”.

    We’ve discussed “hand action” off an on. I’d be interested in others thoughts on this information.


    Hand Action

    Hand speed means nothing in golf because the ball is stationary, so the golfer employs the front side and lead arm for accuracy. He can even stop his swing and start over if he wants to. But to the hitter, hand speed is everything because the pitch is traveling at high speed in unpredictable ways and sometimes you have to swing.

    The hitter will go a long way when he realizes that his hand speed is vital in governing the start, delay, speed, and direction of his stroke. The third key on Rod Carew’s list of ten keys to good hitting is: “Use your hands. Become an aggressive hands hitter. This allows you to wait longer on the pitch and react to changes in pitch direction.”

    Building the skill of hand quickness is as easy as switching on a light. First, understand that hand speed is a physical concept. The body must become aware of how the hand and wrist muscles should work. You can get this concept by taking your stance and feel only the power in your hands, your grip. Let nothing else register. Grip the bat firmly at the “pad” of the hand located at the base of the fingers, not back in the palm. Squeeze and release the handle of your bat with your fingers to burn in the feel of strength. Now start your swing with your hands only, starting your hands from the launching position. Again, hands only. You’ll find that the other body parts, particularly the hip rotation, fall in line automatically. Once you have the feel in your hands, never lose it. Rehearse it as much as you can.



    Thus, from the launching position it’s “hands first.”



    Remember, any premature movement toward the pitcher, a false start or flinch by the hands, will incorrectly allow the front shoulders to open. This is why hand work is vital. Hands must stay back!

    Frank Howard: “Lock up that front side until the hands begin working.”

    Exactly. Hands first, front side second.

    Frank Howard: “I like to use the expression ‘we have a fast hip [front side opening] action, but it’s a late action.’ This makes it a snap. If I open the hips [and front shoulder] too soon, the front side is going to fly open and I’ll lose my power.”

    Al Kaline: “My secret was to always keep that front shoulder closed until the last instant. That way my hands had to start.”

    Clarence Jones: “Hitters sometimes hurry their feet [knee cock, stride, landing, resulting in premature hip turn] and you have to slow them down. When a hitter hurries his feet, his actions happen too fast and he’ll drag the bat. Slow his feet down. Slow feet [deliberate, relaxed movement] results in quick hands.”

    These men are saying the same thing. Combined, they read like this: “When a hitter hurries his actions, the front side opens up too soon and upsets the rhythm of the swing. The power is lost and the bat drags because the hands cannot work.”

    Remember, all hitting movements except the hands and hips are slow, steady, relaxed, fluid. Keeping the front side closed is vital. If Al Kaline calls it his secret we’d do well to label it top priority.

    To capsulize, there are two kinds of swings. One is pulled through by the front arm and front shoulder, which tends to restrict hip rotation. The other type of swing is dominated by the hand snap, using both hands. The second is by far the quicker, and facilitates hip rotation.

  • #2
    Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    The following is from the book “The Mike Schmidt Study”.

    We’ve discussed “hand action” off an on. I’d be interested in others thoughts on this information.


    Hand Action

    Hand speed means nothing in golf because the ball is stationary, so the golfer employs the front side and lead arm for accuracy. He can even stop his swing and start over if he wants to. But to the hitter, hand speed is everything because the pitch is traveling at high speed in unpredictable ways and sometimes you have to swing.

    The hitter will go a long way when he realizes that his hand speed is vital in governing the start, delay, speed, and direction of his stroke. The third key on Rod Carew’s list of ten keys to good hitting is: “Use your hands. Become an aggressive hands hitter. This allows you to wait longer on the pitch and react to changes in pitch direction.”

    Building the skill of hand quickness is as easy as switching on a light. First, understand that hand speed is a physical concept. The body must become aware of how the hand and wrist muscles should work. You can get this concept by taking your stance and feel only the power in your hands, your grip. Let nothing else register. Grip the bat firmly at the “pad” of the hand located at the base of the fingers, not back in the palm. Squeeze and release the handle of your bat with your fingers to burn in the feel of strength. Now start your swing with your hands only, starting your hands from the launching position. Again, hands only. You’ll find that the other body parts, particularly the hip rotation, fall in line automatically. Once you have the feel in your hands, never lose it. Rehearse it as much as you can.



    Thus, from the launching position it’s “hands first.”



    Remember, any premature movement toward the pitcher, a false start or flinch by the hands, will incorrectly allow the front shoulders to open. This is why hand work is vital. Hands must stay back!

    Frank Howard: “Lock up that front side until the hands begin working.”

    Exactly. Hands first, front side second.

    Frank Howard: “I like to use the expression ‘we have a fast hip [front side opening] action, but it’s a late action.’ This makes it a snap. If I open the hips [and front shoulder] too soon, the front side is going to fly open and I’ll lose my power.”

    Al Kaline: “My secret was to always keep that front shoulder closed until the last instant. That way my hands had to start.”

    Clarence Jones: “Hitters sometimes hurry their feet [knee cock, stride, landing, resulting in premature hip turn] and you have to slow them down. When a hitter hurries his feet, his actions happen too fast and he’ll drag the bat. Slow his feet down. Slow feet [deliberate, relaxed movement] results in quick hands.”

    These men are saying the same thing. Combined, they read like this: “When a hitter hurries his actions, the front side opens up too soon and upsets the rhythm of the swing. The power is lost and the bat drags because the hands cannot work.”

    Remember, all hitting movements except the hands and hips are slow, steady, relaxed, fluid. Keeping the front side closed is vital. If Al Kaline calls it his secret we’d do well to label it top priority.

    To capsulize, there are two kinds of swings. One is pulled through by the front arm and front shoulder, which tends to restrict hip rotation. The other type of swing is dominated by the hand snap, using both hands. The second is by far the quicker, and facilitates hip rotation.
    Personally, I'll stick with Ted Williams; "The hips lead the hands."

    Comment


    • #3
      I have the book and read the book and more than once I found myself questioning what he was promoting. This was one of those sections. I'm cetainly not qualified to 2nd guess Mike Schmidt but I gotta belive that I'm interpreting what he's saying way different than what he intended. He seems contradictory at times.

      I'm with JB on this.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jbooth View Post
        Personally, I'll stick with Ted Williams; "The hips lead the hands."
        I agree. The hips lead the hands.

        The hips also lead the shoulders.

        Consider the notion of "maintaining the box" or "maintaining lead arm extension". In both cases one is trying to maintain the angle in the lead arm from the launch position until just prior to contact.

        What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
          I agree. The hips lead the hands.

          The hips also lead the shoulders.

          Consider the notion of "maintaining the box" or "maintaining lead arm extension". In both cases one is trying to maintain the angle in the lead arm from the launch position until just prior to contact.

          What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.
          He obviously suggests a lot of things that are wrong. Why give this any more attention then the rest of the wrong information?

          Comment


          • #6
            I like Mike Schmidt's take on the swing. Hands, then hips, meaning hand/arm action gets the upper body started without the shoulders opening prematurely. Hips lead the way expoused by Williams is still valid, a gold standard of sorts, as hips do lead the way in rotation. Hands, then hips in a nut shell.

            On a side note, I believe it was Scott that said the lead arm shoud be dominant, as a lot of HOF's were left hitting and right throwing. Well, I don't know what the percentage of these kind of hitters are in the Hall, but I do know what Williams said about the subject. In his book, 'Science of Hitting', Williams says there were 9 outstanding left-hand hitters in baseball history. Of the nine, Williams, Cobb, and Shoeless Joe Jackson were the only natural right handers. Let me emphasize - only 3 left-handed hitting, right handed throwing greats. The remaining six - Ruth, Gehrig, Sisler, Terry, Musial, and Tris Speaker were lefties all the way - throwing and batting left-handed.

            In Williams opinion, the power hand should be the hand closest to the point of impact - the top hand. I would definitely agree with him. Williams went on to say he thinks he would have been a better hitter (that's a scary thought!) if he were a left-handed thrower.

            What I'm got out of Mike Schmidt's material is that he differentiates between the lead shoulder starting the upper body rotation and the hands starting the upper body rotation. He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.
            Bingo! Yahtzee! We have liftoff! Schmidt is a smart guy.

            Mike
            Last edited by Slapper23; 02-18-2008, 03:06 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
              Hands, then hips in a nut shell.
              Then how come almost every MLB hitter's hands are moving back into load while the hips are opening?

              He suggests that the hands start the upper body rotation and not the lead shoulder.
              Illogical. Since the hips go first, and the hands go back, the hips make the shoulder turn which pulls the hands forward. Now, I will say that one does pull the knob using the arms, but whether they know it or not, the shoulder has already started to move the hands.

              Yes, the cue is to keep the shoulder in, but it has to turn after the hips force it to. The arm action used to pull the bat comes as the hips turn the shoulders.

              His front shoulder stays in while his hips move, and his hands go back. The shoulder will move before he can get the hands going forward with arm power. He WILL use the arms also to pull the bat, but the hip/shoulder turn gets the hands started.



              His hands go back as his hips start to turn. The bat moves off the yellow line while the hips continue to turn, and his hands stay back at his shoulder, and move forward with his shoulder rotation. His hands don't go before the shoulders. He does use arm power to try to get the hands to bypass the shoulders, but that happens after the hips and shoulders pull the hands. "Hips lead the hands." The hands must move in perfect synch with the shoulders. They don't go ahead of the shoulders, or get "dragged" by the shoulders. I agree that the arms move the hands, they don't just hang on to the bat, but they don't go ahead of the shoulders.

              Last edited by jbooth; 02-18-2008, 03:42 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Then how come almost every MLB hitter's hands are moving back into load while the hips are opening?
                Jim, that doesn't take away from the fact that hand/arm action initiates movement, triggers synching and timing of the swing.

                Jim, I would say the hands are already beginning to flatten before the shoulders turn. Goes right along with what Schmidt is saying. If you are pulling, you're dragging. Yeah, eventually the shoulders turn, they have to as they lose the battle to hips leading the way and resulting stretch reflex. But this is a much different action than pulling swing movements of lead shoulder/lead arm powered rotation of the upper torso.

                Bonds gets a running start with the hands/and arms prior to shoulder rotation. When the shoulders do turn he's already underway. The lead arm may be pulling to help align and guide swing path, but I'm with Williams in the the top hand/arm is the power arm and is pushing/driving the bat through contact. Williams said "the baseball swing is a hard push-swing. I do not disagree with this, but do want to better understand it.

                Schmidt was and is no dummy. He did this as one of the greats. I would at least try to honestly consider what he's saying rather than some dismissing it off the cuff because it interferes with their current belief.

                Mike

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JeffK 29 View Post
                  I have the book and read the book and more than once I found myself questioning what he was promoting. This was one of those sections. I'm cetainly not qualified to 2nd guess Mike Schmidt but I gotta belive that I'm interpreting what he's saying way different than what he intended. He seems contradictory at times.

                  I'm with JB on this.
                  What exactly are you questioning?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hiddengem View Post
                    What exactly are you questioning?
                    The same thing being discussed by slapper and jb. If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows. Does mot appear to be what I see on video. If someone has ingrained hip rotation like you and all other high level hitters, quick hands probably means something different. So while not qualified to 2nd guess Schmidt, his hands statements confuse a low level guy like me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JeffK 29 View Post
                      The same thing being discussed by slapper and jb. If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows. Does mot appear to be what I see on video. If someone has ingrained hip rotation like you and all other high level hitters, quick hands probably means something different. So while not qualified to 2nd guess Schmidt, his hands statements confuse a low level guy like me.
                      Ok, I understand. I think what he was getting at was if you really "muscle up" and "in your mind" innitiate the swing with your shoulders..what will happen many times is that you will pull off the ball and end up dragging the bat through the zone. If you think about using good quick hands and getting good strong hip rotation into foot plant, things will fall into place.

                      We all know, Mike Included, that the barell eventually is under your hands. Its not possible to have it any other way. However, if you "trick" yourself in your mind into thinking you an keep the barell up, it will prevent your from losing the barell behind you to quick and looping to the ball.

                      This is a good clip to see, that yes, the barell is under his hands at some point..but it doesn't happen to early.
                      Last edited by hiddengem; 02-18-2008, 05:48 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If I hear/think hands first, I fling my hands to the ball and everything else follows.
                        Jeff, I agree, that would be wrong and is not what I or Schmidt is talking about. Hips still go first, but the hand/arm action sets everything up for a quick, explosive reaction to the ball. Hey, you're no more low level than the rest of us. You're trying to learn just like I am.

                        Mike

                        If you think about using good quick hands and getting good strong hip rotation into foot plant, things will fall into place.
                        Gem is on top of it with the above remark. Good stuff!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
                          Jim, that doesn't take away from the fact that hand/arm action initiates movement, triggers synching and timing of the swing.

                          Jim, I would say the hands are already beginning to flatten before the shoulders turn.
                          The hands are not flattening themselves. The rear elbow begining to slot is talking care of the entire sequence of flattening. No one "drops the bat to plane" using the hands.

                          Video and experience supports the rear elbow begining to slot is what flattens the lead hand to the plane.

                          It isn't until the elbow is fully slotted, AFTER shoulder turn starts, that the top hand is sync'd to the lead hand in becoming flat to the plane.

                          In otherwords, the hands aren't doing anything to flatten themselves. Actions of the humerus are responsible for flattening the hands to the plane.

                          Originally posted by Slapper23
                          Goes right along with what Schmidt is saying. If you are pulling, you're dragging. Yeah, eventually the shoulders turn, they have to as they lose the battle to hips leading the way and resulting stretch reflex. But this is a much different action than pulling swing movements of lead shoulder/lead arm powered rotation of the upper torso.
                          I've never understood this position. Saying the shoulders "lose the battle with the hips" is infering that the hips are pulling the shoulders around to contact. This is simply not true, and completely counter to the stretch reflex response. The stretch reflex is what "signals" the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE to "power up in sequence".

                          Originally posted by Slapper23
                          Bonds gets a running start with the hands/and arms prior to shoulder rotation.
                          He sure does. As do most hitters as they load back during opening rotation into plant. But the "running start" isn't toward contact is it.

                          Originally posted by Slapper23
                          When the shoulders do turn he's already underway. The lead arm may be pulling to help align and guide swing path, but I'm with Williams in the the top hand/arm is the power arm and is pushing/driving the bat through contact. Williams said "the baseball swing is a hard push-swing. I do not disagree with this, but do want to better understand it.
                          Oh my gaud! Did you just say "PUSH"? I can't believe you just said the swing is a push and you don't disagree! You can't say "PUSH" and be a member of HI, don't you know that?

                          Well, there is hope for you after all Mike......

                          You're right, there is a push. And the push is powered by the torso/shoulder rotation ENGINE behind the hands/arms.

                          Is that what you've been missing? It is, isn't it!

                          When you ALLOW YOURSELF to fully understand the concept you've just laid out, you will understand the role of the torso/shoulder ENGINE, and why bat speed is more then doubled when that engine powers up in sequence.

                          THE ARMS/HANDS CAN'T PUSH THEMSELVES TO CONTACT WITH ENOUGH FORCE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE MIKE. AND NEITHER CAN THE HIPS PUSH THE ARMS/HAND TO CONTACT.

                          You've just exposed one of the biggest point of contentions with HI theory.
                          Last edited by BoardMember; 02-18-2008, 06:22 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
                            Jeff, I agree, that would be wrong and is not what I or Schmidt is talking about. Hips still go first, but the hand/arm action sets everything up for a quick, explosive reaction to the ball. Hey, you're no more low level than the rest of us. You're trying to learn just like I am.

                            Mike



                            Gem is on top of it with the above remark. Good stuff!
                            Gem/Slapper, Thanks for the clarification. Good stuff.

                            Curious what you both think of a comment I left in another thread regarding shoulder rotation...it relates to the timing of rear hand release to the ball. I've struggled with the same issue as Steve777.

                            Jeff

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Coach, what is obvious is your speaking for me isn't working. What is obvious, and it really is too bad, is you won't allow yourself the benefit of logical reasoning. I think you won't allow yourself to see what is really taking place in the swing. You're stuck in reverse. Hey, I've been there before, but in keeping an open mind about this stuff I moved forward in my learning. At this point, it is approaching hopelessness in discussing hitting with you. IMO, you have it wrong. And your analysis is wrong. We've discussed and discussed this, and we still do not agree.

                              You should continue with what you believe until such time you ever make a change, an evolution in your thinking. Are you at that magical point in the learning process where there is no more to learn? You have all the answers? It would seem you think that is the case. But I really think you know better.

                              Mike

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