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  • How the ball breaks

    Please explain to me how the different pitches breaks for a right hander ( Slider, Screwball, 2-4 Seem fast ball, and some others I dont know). Explain in a grid pattern 1-2-3 on top, 4-5-6 for the second row and 7-8-9 for the bottom row. Or I guess baseball uses the Clock pattern. I guess a 12-6 curveball basicaly breaks 2 down to 8, or some curves are 3 to 7 ( so thats 2-7 for the clock pattern?). At least I understand Knuckleballs can go anywhere. By the way thank you BBF and all the people that give thier opinion and advise. This is a great forum.

  • #2
    the clock is probably easier to use but I will try the grid. I'll explain the view of a right-handed hitter in the box against a right-handed pitcher using the grid(approximate amount of break) and a clock(angle of break) facing me as the hitter or if you were the catcher. point #5 is the reference point for the pitches, of course they can start and end anywhere.

    **********
    * 1 * 2 * 3 *
    **********
    * 4 * 5 * 6 *
    **********
    * 7 * 8 * 9 *
    **********

    4-seam: no movement[point #5(straight)], can also tail relatively flat [point #5-4(around 3:00-9:00)], can cut stays relatively flat [point #5-6( around 9:00-3:00)], believed to also ride or rise but the movement isn't alot. it usually won't jump from one grid location to the next like the other pitches. Power pitch. mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

    2-seam: usually has movement, slower than 4-seam(5-10 mph slower)AKA the sinker has 3 possible movement angles. 1) point #5-8, just falls straight down. 2) point #5-7(1:00-7:00) 3) tails and sinks, point #5-4/7(2:00-8:00). mostly backspin(straight or tilted)

    change-up: does everything the fastballs can do except it can't rise and it has less velocity(10-15 mph slower). mostly backspin(straight or tilted).

    cutter: approaches plate at left edge of point #5 to right edge of point #5(can be 9:00-3:00 or 9:30-3:30) not alot of movement just enough to miss. Made Rivera famous. between the spin of fastball and slider with fastball velocity(1-8 mph slower).

    curveball & knucklecurve: has many medium to large movements through the zone. regular curve can break in the grid from point #2-8(12:00-6:00), point #2-9(11:00-5:00), point #1-9(10:30-4:30 or 10:00-4:00). The knuckle curve breaks at Point#2-8, #2-9 and #2-7. slower than fastball (10-25 mph slower), has topspin(straight or tilted)

    slider: AKA the nickel curve. This pitch has 4 basic movement angles and is close(7-15 mph slower) to fastball velocity. when approaching the plate it can break in points#5-8(12:00-6:00), points #5-9(11:00-5:00), points #4-9(10:00-4:00), and points#4-6(9:00-3:00). amount of break is sharp and can be more or less than the grid indicates. spins(mostly) counterclockwise and creates a dot in its center.

    slurve: spins like a slider(sidespin), breaks like a normal curve just not as much, between the two in velocity(closer to curveball), hybrid of the two.

    forkball/splitter: these two pitches have the same 3 movements as the knucklecurve (grid points but they approach the plate close to fastball velocity(7-10mph slower). tumbling backspin(about half or less of the revolutions of a fastball)

    screwball: AKA mr. screwgie, breaks from point #6-4(3:00-9:00) or from point #6-7(2:00-8:00). around 12-20 mph slower than fastball. dangerous for the arm. clockwise spin.

    knuckleball: AKA the floater from h*** . 17-35 mph slower than fastball. starts at point 1-2-3(no tellin which one) and usually ends somewhere around 4-5-6-7-8-9(depends on speed and lack of spin how much break you get) while moving in different directions through flight. absolutely no spin. best thrown in the 58-70 mph range.

    I hope this helps answer your question. Later!
    Last edited by Breeves85; 02-24-2008, 03:08 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      the clock is probably easier to use but I will try the grid. I'll explain the view of a right-handed hitter in the box against a right-handed pitcher using the grid(approximate amount of break) and a clock(angle of break) facing me as the hitter or if you were the catcher. point #5 is the reference point for the pitches, of course they can start and end anywhere.

      **********
      * 1 * 2 * 3 *
      **********
      * 4 * 5 * 6 *
      **********
      * 7 * 8 * 9 *
      **********
      This is a good try, but it contains multiple errors.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      4-seam: no movement[point #5(straight)], can also tail relatively flat [point #5-4(around 3:00-9:00)], can cut stays relatively flat [point #5-6( around 9:00-3:00)], believed to also ride or rise but the movement isn't alot. it usually won't jump from one grid location to the next like the other pitches. Power pitch. mostly backspin(straight or tilted)
      A good 4-seamer will move 4-5 or 5-6. A great 4-seamer (Ryan, Peavy, Verlander) will move 4-6.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      2-seam: usually has movement, slower than 4-seam(5-10 mph slower)AKA the sinker has 3 possible movement angles. 1) point #5-8, just falls straight down. 2) point #5-7(1:00-7:00) 3) tails and sinks, point #5-4/7(2:00-8:00). mostly backspin(straight or tilted)
      Most 2-seamers come in at roughly 97% of a 4-seamer velocity. If a guy's 4-seamer is 95, their 2-seamer will come in a 92. However, most guys throw either a 4 or a 2, not both.

      Standard 2-seamer movement is 5-9.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      change-up: does everything the fastballs can do except it can't rise and it has less velocity(10-15 mph slower). mostly backspin(straight or tilted).
      Usually 5-9 or 2-9.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      cutter: approaches plate at left edge of point #5 to right edge of point #5(can be 9:00-3:00 or 9:30-3:30) not alot of movement just enough to miss. Made Rivera famous. between the spin of fastball and slider with fastball velocity(1-8 mph slower).
      Most will move 6-5 or 5-4.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      slider: AKA the nickel curve. This pitch has 4 basic movement angles and is close(7-15 mph slower) to fastball velocity. when approaching the plate it can break in points#5-8(12:00-6:00), points #5-9(11:00-5:00), points #4-9(10:00-4:00), and points#4-6(9:00-3:00). amount of break is sharp and can be more or less than the grid indicates. spins(mostly) counterclockwise and creates a dot in its center.
      Classic movement is 5-7.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      slurve: spins like a slider(sidespin), breaks like a normal curve just not as much, between the two in velocity(closer to curveball), hybrid of the two.
      Usually moves 3-7 or 2-7.

      Break isn't as sharp as a good slider or as vertical as a good curve.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      forkball/splitter: these two pitches have the same 3 movements as the knucklecurve (grid points but they approach the plate close to fastball velocity(7-10mph slower). tumbling backspin(about half or less of the revolutions of a fastball)
      Generally move 5-8.


      Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
      screwball: AKA mr. screwgie, breaks from point #6-4(3:00-9:00) or from point #6-7(2:00-8:00). around 12-20 mph slower than fastball. dangerous for the arm. clockwise spin.
      This is totally wrong.

      First, a screwball will tend to move 1-9 or 2-9.

      Second, the screwball is a perfectly safe pitch. Greg Maddux's FB and CH are variations of the screwball.
      Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

      I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are we looking at the grid from the pitcher's viewpoint or the hitter/catcher's? I get the feeling that Chris and B85 are looking from opposite sides.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jneas View Post
          Are we looking at the grid from the pitcher's viewpoint or the hitter/catcher's? I get the feeling that Chris and B85 are looking from opposite sides.
          My point of view is the pitcher, which is the standard.
          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

          Comment


          • #6
            breeves85 your wrong in so many ways... nice try though. and thanks to chris o leary for correcting it.
            2008 varsity stats
            AB-35 K-5 BB-6 H-14 2B-3 3B-0 HR-0 RBI-10 BA- .400
            all stars pitching stats--- W-L= 1-0
            IP- 5 H- 1 BB- 2 HR- 0 ER- 0 K- 8 ERA: 0.00

            Comment


            • #7
              I do apologize that I didn't make myself clear. The grid was used to describe the points in the strike zone. its funny how I am SO WRONG when I so obviously stated that my explanation was from the VANTAGE POINT OF THE HITTER AND CATCHER WITH A RIGHT HANDED PITCHER! I do agree that the pitches can break more or less than I described and that I may have been wrong about the screwball, but Chris you said the key word when talking about Maddux's pitches. You said they were variations of the screwball NOT the traditional one that can really mess up the elbow. A variation is a modification to achieve a different result. Maddux doesn't turn it over like a traditional screwball and if his 2-seamer was a true screwball it wouldn't be coming at 85 mph. I'm quite sure Maddux's pitches don't have the traditional screwball spin. All you described was a typical 2-seam sinker as you put it. I would love to see Maddux throw a 2-seamer that breaks from the top of the zone to the very bottom. It's hard for the change-up to break that far and who cares if a pitcher only throws one or the other fastball, that wasn't the point. When I described the pitches, I didn't plan on giving the typical standard, I was giving every possibility. The movement depends entirely on the arm angle. For example the slider, Johnson's and Pryor's sliders break more horizontally than vertically, while K-Rod's is the exact opposite. Pedro's curveball is flatter than Beckett's curve or Mussina's knucklecurve. So once again I ask the question, how was I wrong when I gave every type of variation possible?
              Last edited by Breeves85; 02-24-2008, 02:33 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Breeves85 View Post
                I may have been wrong about the screwball, but Chris you said the key word when talking about Maddux's pitches. You said they were variations of the screwball NOT the traditional one that can really mess up the elbow.
                It is a MYTH that the screwball, any screwball, will mess up the elbow.

                The opposite is true.
                Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You guys are awsome, Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
                    It is a MYTH that the screwball, any screwball, will mess up the elbow.

                    The opposite is true.
                    August 22nd, 1938 article on the greatest screwball pitcher ever....Carl Hubbell

                    "Hubbell has an arm operation for bone chips in his elbow and is finished for the season. He tells writers that for several years his elbow has hurt from throwing his screwball."

                    My pitching coach in college also threw a screwball, and that screwball got him to the big leagues... He also had elbow and shoulder injuries from this pitch which required surgery.

                    Pronation before release is not "natural" pronation, and is not a pitch that should be taught unless all other options of getting hitters out has been exhausted (in adult pitchers).

                    IMO your dead wrong.
                    My own signature is not impressive, so I selected one that was...
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Couple of things I'd like to add

                      I'd thought I'd say this, although I don't think it's groundbreaking stuff.

                      The shape and amount of "break" for any pitch is largely dependent on the ball's spin axis and RPM's.

                      Hence, a RH pitcher with a high slot will generally have less horizontal movement on his pitcher than a pitcher with a low slot.

                      Think about any sport that involves a sphere being thrown and hit. Put slice spin in golf and the ball will go left to right. Put slice spin on a baseball and it goes left to right. Throw a ball with slice spin and guess what?

                      Yup, left to right (from a RH's POV).

                      I would argue that the best 4-seamers are the ones that "stay up longer" and give the impression that they "rise", not the ones that move the most laterally.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Deemax View Post

                        Pronation before release is not "natural" pronation, and is not a pitch that should be taught unless all other options of getting hitters out has been exhausted (in adult pitchers).

                        Doesn't Marshall teach pronation to release the ball as a way to prevent elbow problems?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Chris,

                          Nice.


                          Dee,

                          It’s not Dr.Carl Hubbell?

                          Bone chips or spurs as they call them now are not bone they are calcified pieces hyaline cartilage that is torn off while youth throwing and pitching. Shoulder and elbow injuries are caused by “Over early rotation” and “Scapular loading” not pronated pitch types!

                          LABall,

                          He only claims certain types of elbow problems from supination.
                          UCL damage comes from bouncing the ball backwards just prior to forward force application.

                          The screwball is the safest of all maximally thrown pitches!
                          Primum non nocere

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It’s not Dr.Carl Hubbell?

                            Bone chips or spurs as they call them now are not bone they are calcified pieces hyaline cartilage that is torn off while youth throwing and pitching. Shoulder and elbow injuries are caused by “Over early rotation” and “Scapular loading” not pronated pitch types!
                            Its not Dr. Carl Hubbell?!? OK dirt, Its Hall of Famer Carl Hubbell. The greatest screwballer ever says this pitch is not natural, and is the reason his arm was destroyed.... Much more convincing then you cutting and pasting MM's flawed opinion.
                            My own signature is not impressive, so I selected one that was...
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Fwiw

                              FWIW, this is a Carl Hubbell quote:
                              “The screwball's an unnatural pitch. Nature never intended a man to turn his hand like that throwing rocks at a bear.”

                              Comment

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