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  • I hijacked the thread, and moved my post. sorry
    Last edited by hiddengem; 03-11-2006, 06:54 PM.


    • Can you do that (line through the body) thing with a line up his back as you have and one that dissects at the plane of his swing?


      • Sandman-

        I disagree wth the Steve E/Paul Simon 50 ways to load your upper body (50 ways to leave your lover).

        There is just one basic sequence that is glued together by arm action sequence, just as in throwing. For example,lead arm internal rotation about the time of drop and tilt works well (doesn't force dropping bathead looping swing) as long as the preceding moves prepare well as with BHUT,then internal rotation is all set up,ready to go. All this stuff about impulse and angles and how many degrees of freedom the pelvis has is way more chaotic and complicated than it needs to be.

        Not to say it's easy, but it is possible to see the universal arm action sequence reliably analytically on surface video. If you need to go into Depth to see how "function" is,then it is far more reliable to identify the kinesiological universals that are producing the surface appearance across a number of hitters. They all internally rotate the back arm and lead leg to support coking the hip,for example. This may look diferent because of unique style, but the universal joint motion sequence and upper lower body synch is almost always readily seen in a good high level swing .

        Anther way to assess the deeper function is the typical reactive motions that are seen that accompany momentum transfer - back foot action for example.

        Learn a good overhand throw arm action (which is essential anyway) and then the same sequence can be mastered for hitting.

        Your kid wil stop squatting and learn to cok the hip and keep it coked(notice his hip has lost any cok/pinch is comingout of rear waist before toe touch,similar to the problem of standing up early and losing pinch/cok) for example once he knows how to get sideways,windup and throw and then does the same basic thing when he hits. Always good to work on throw and hit together like the kid in the green jersey.


        • Originally posted by tadlock11
          Can you do that (line through the body) thing with a line up his back as you have and one that dissects at the plane of his swing?
          I'm assuming you meant the plane on which the bat is traveling? Let me know if I assumed wrong.


          • Wow, great thread. Thanks to all - but especially to Ohfor, Steve E, and MSandman. I've had some things going on that have pretty much kept me out of the forums of late, but I finally sat down and read through closely... really enjoyed it. Lots of good stuff.


            • Originally posted by MSandman
              I'm assuming you meant the plane on which the bat is traveling? Let me know if I assumed wrong.

              That's perfect! Thanks.


              • You're welcome


                • All this stuff about impulse and angles and how many degrees of freedom the pelvis has is way more chaotic and complicated than it needs to be.

                  YOU think what Steve teaches is complicated? Or are you pulling our legs a little?



                  • And here is Pujols on a high pitch for comparison. It certainly looks to me as if the postural adjustment (torso tilt) is less it is on the low pitch. Which is consistent w/ what I would expect.

                    Now, I do think that you could make the point that he SET UP w/ less knee bend in the second swing. Since it was in an HR contest, and he knew what pitch to expect, that may in fact be true. But the point remains, either through anticipation, OR through a less pronounced postural adjustment, or (most probably) BOTH, he altered his posture in the second swing as compared to the first. And in BOTH cases, he made most of his adjustment PRIOR to launch. And then, he simply rotated.

                    And I think that proves the contention of many, and I think it's pretty significant. I have a bias - I want this to be true - because it is FAR easier then the myriad of pre-launch and in-swing adjustnments sometimes advocated. Bias aside, it DOES appear to be true.

                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by ssarge; 03-12-2006, 07:01 AM.


                    • Originally posted by tom.guerry
                      Hey Sandman- it's the old "you don't understand the swing at the deep 'functional level' so even though you have discovered that on the surface/visually the emperor has no clothes, it doesn't count."
                      If one doesn't have a flipping clue what "clothes" are, then one's observation that the emperor isn't wearing any isn't very credible - even at the visual level.

                      So yes, it is in fact the old "you don't understand the swing at the functional level" argument. And by "functional level," I mean an understanding beyond what this MLB hitter or that MLB hitter seems to be doing with his hands and arms to create efficient movement. I mean an understanding beyond "bio-mechanical" descriptions. I watched a lot of MLB swings and read Setpro for many years and developed a superficial understanding of a lot of the bio-mechanical aspects of posture, rotation and connection. But what really enabled me to better understand the "functional," physiological aspects was what Steve often refers to as "the trainer's perspective."

                      "The trainer's perspective" is what enabled Steve to read Paul's stuff and make "functional" sense out of it. His "trainer's perspective - especially his understanding of human physiology and kinesiology - enables him to understand how the body actually creates efficient athletic movements - including how it most efficiently swings a bat. Steve came to Setpro with some basic understandings of Dixon and others, and the things that Paul had discovered made sense to him (how much he got from Paul and how much he had already formulated independently is another issue).

                      I was chatting with Paul and Suzy one time near the end of, and Paul made the statement that everything there was to learn about how the body efficiently swings a bat had been posted on the Setpro/ forums and could be understood if one were diligent enough to do so. I suggested that this was not true unless by "diligence" he meant acquiring the kind of background Steve had. I said this because, to my knowledge, Steve is the only one who really read Pau's stuff and developed any real "functional" or "operational" understanding of the Setpro material - to the degree that he was able to understand and teach how the body creates the movements that make up the "high-level swing." I'm still not convinced that Paul ever intended anyone to understand his stuff to that degree, and when he realized what was happening as a result of Steve's efforts ... well, many of you were there and witnessed the end of that world as we knew it.

                      It may seem as if I'm just using this post as a pretext for pro-Englishbey propaganda. I'm not. I'm trying to make the point that the "deeper functional" understanding is the difference between really understanding what young hitters need to do to develop a high-level swing in contrast to merely observing what hand and arm action certain MLB hitters manifest in their swings.

                      "Connection" is a bio-mechanical phenomenon. "Changing the direction of the knob" is a bio-mechanical phenomenon. "Getting the bat flat" is a bio-mechanical phenomenon. The movement and position of the hands and arms are bio-mechanical phenomena. On the other hand, how high-level hitters actually create these movements, angles and positions are physiological/kinesthetic phenomena. If you're going to help young hitters develop these biomechanical phenomena, you'd better have a pretty good understanding of the physiological/kinesthetic reality. This is (my understanding of) the difference between "form" and "function."

                      Observing that certain MLB hitters do this or that with their hands and arms or bat head may or may not help young hitters develop the physiological/kinesthetic realities essential to a high-level swing. As Steve has pointed out in this thread (and as Sandman seems eventually to have understood by focusing on his own son's swings) is that trying to teach the physiological/kinesthetic realities by teaching or adjusting bio-mechanical phenomena is ineffective - even counterproductive - for several reasons:

                      1. Hand, arm and bat movements/positions may or may not result in the muscular actions essential to achieve the ultimate bio-mechanical efficiency. In other words, a kid might well imitate these MLB hitter movements and positions and still fail to effectively use the right muscles essential to achieve the bio-mechanical goals (connection, changing direction of the knob, flat bat, efficient swing plane, etc.)

                      2. The hand, arm and bat movements/positions of certain MLB hitters are extremely complex and trying to develop the bio-mechanical objectives by teaching these movements/positions will very likely lead to increased inefficiencies (contribute to the "chaos") instead of solving the problem: the problem of what the body really needs to do to create these bio-mechanical objectives.

                      To repeat my present understanding of the "bio-mechanical phenomena" that young hitters need to learn to develop in order to achieve a bio-mechanically efficient, "high-level" swing:

                      (1) Connect the bat to their body (shoulder rotation) with bat (swing plane) perpendicular to their spine

                      (2) Rotate from the middle

                      (3) The posture necessary to most efficiently achieve (1) and (2) above. "Posture" is a term that generally describes an inter-related group of physiological/kinesthetic realities which both optimally engage the muscles and set the angles essential to producing the above "bio-mechanical phenomena."

                      In view of this, there are two more reasons that teaching hand, arm and bat movements/positions will not really "get at" what most young hitters need to learn in order to develop high-level swings:

                      1. Neuromuscular Problem. To paraphrase (and probably re-interpret) Paul Nyman and Steve Englishbey, most young hitters are trying to solve the "motor problem" of "getting the damn barrel around" in the way that is natural to them but in a way that is extremely inefficient. At a fundamental "neuromuscular" level, their problem is a "motor program" problem (as Steve puts it, a "psycho-physiological" problem). (1) Connecting the bat to the body with bat perpendicular to the spine, (2) rotating from the middle, and (3) the posture necessary to most efficiently achieve these things are fundamentally alien to their natural "motor programs." From a developmental perspective, this is why they cannot possibly learn a high-level swing unless their old "motor program" - or neuromuscular swing habits - are abolished and replaced with completely new movements. They cannot possibly learn (1), (2) and (3) above unless the focus of their "developmental program" - drills, exercises and practice - is (1), (2) and (3) above. It won't happen by accident. And it won't happen by focusing on "arm action" or hand positioning.

                      2. Physiological/kinesthetic Difficulty. Because (1) Connecting the bat to the body with bat perpendicular to the spine, (2) rotating from the middle, and (3) the posture necessary to most efficiently achieve these things are not natural to most young hitters, what Steve calls a "neuromuscular deficit" must be overcome. They are not used to swinging in the most efficient way and using the muscles necessary to do it. Consequently, the new movements ("physiological/kinesthetic realities" of a high-level swing) are very difficult to learn (right JBooth?). In short, the efficient movements - engaging the appropriate muscles in the right way - is physically difficult to perform. Once again, that is why the developmental program - drills, exercises and practice - must be (1), (2) and (3) above.

                      So yes, it is in fact the old "you don't understand the swing at the functional level" argument. I hope I've made that argument a little more clear and the emperor's attire a little more visible to those willing to see it. Feel free to let me know where I have failed. And my apologies for such a long post. I've wanted to say some of these things for a long time, and I just sort of "let it flow."
                      Last edited by fungo22; 03-12-2006, 01:11 AM.


                      • Greg:

                        Extremely insightful post.

                        Highest regards,



                        • Greg,

                          That was a TERRIFIC post. Posts are only long if they [email protected]#K! I hate to read a long post that doesn't deliver any real substance. Your post will be read and re-read because it's all MEAT.



                          • I second Scott's compliment!

                            And for yet another different view of posture adjustment...

                            I tried as much as possible to line these up, using the umpire's left leg. Hopefully it's close enough to be mostly accurate.

                            Thank you for providing such a detailed description fungo. I really appreciate the efforts of people like you (and of course Steve and others) who, despite being Nyman "fallouts", [most of you ] managed to come away w/o the bitter, sarcastic or egomaniacal attitude that your former mentor always seemed to have.

                            Thank you,


                            • Here comes the posse !

                              So Sarge/Scott-

                              I Do believe the arm action is king/take advantage of simultaneus learning of several skills is far simpler.

                              Overhand throw and hitting have MUCH in common and mastering both is essential for reaching potential.

                              Still the arm action is king/comparative learning (golf type) approach IS difficult to communicate in writing.

                              But I would say nonetheless it is far simpler than what fungo is saying in post above and way simpler than Steve E and the pelvic degree of freedom approach.
                              Furthermore,the middle out pelvic degree of freedom physiologic/neuromuscular "trainer's" approach is inadequately focussed on controlling swing adjustment with the arm/shoulder/more distal links closer to where the action is (contact).

                              This is why it will fail to produce a high level wood bat mlb swing where there must be a degree of early batspeed and sweetspot control that depends on controlling the adjustment late with "TILT", not early with posture.

                              That is just the best interpretation I see (personal opinion which I find well supported by videoanaluysis of hitting and related skills - throwing, - where is major dan, he should know hitting is like backhand,moreso 2 hand backhand, throwing is like serving.forehand is like throwing sidearm,etc)

                              On video, INCLUDING not just surface FORM, but accurate analysis of deeper "function" based on universal kinesiological sequencing (arm action with "mapped"/synched lower body limb as well as pelvic action) and expected reactive motions indicating presence and timing of momentum transfer/transformation.

                              The Pujols clip should support what I am saying.

                              Watch the bat moving before the shoulders untilt/after the shoulder tilts down for the inward turn and before they tlt up for the "drop and tilt". That is carefully coordinated ARM action. It is NOT scap action or posture that does that.This is an essential part of loading so that when the hip turns to max momentum,the shoulders tilt to resist instead of turning. Without that, the necessary late adjustability and swing quickness are lost.

                              Time and again I see players trying to do what they/their dad's think is what one of the guru's is doing, and there is regression to out of sequence action that overstretches the proximal links and forces loss of quickness and late batspeed.

                              Maybe the guru's get better results in person.But then the internet really is a waste of time except for the tightly controlled "support forum" environment.

                              The arm and scap action needs to be the controller of the adjustment which is not primarily "bend at waist", but is better described as sticking butt out or sitting. There is not a "rigid" use of the legs as described by dixon, but a well mapped synch of the upper and lower limbs.

                              A player has to START to sit during the carry (carry goes from hip cok through handcok and rubber band winding to drop and tilt), BUT he can only continue to sit if low location is being recognized. IF he is looking for or seeing high heat, the sit must be interrupted Then you do NOT have the deep sit to drive the swing later to contact.Instead you have to sit less and stretch the torso more by getting the shoulder link up more in the drop and tilt (control of this is actually traced back best to rear scap height although the tilting action will then be performed primarily by lifting the front arm and scap with the shoulder link having firmed up so then move in bloc).

                              If you bend over too much, you will never get up for the high heat.If you bend over some. keep the head upright and looking forward.Rotation will stop when the head turns back or be inhibited if it stays down.

                              Also,when on the tee. keep the head facing out/know where ball is but use peripheral vision. Chin drops to stabilize axis for bathead firing, but should not turn back or down too much.

                              IF you do not get arm action sequence right, you will not have a high level swing with late adjustabiltiy and early batspeed.

                              If you throw well you will be easily capable of transferring this control over to hitting.

                              No easier or harder than that.


                              • Your clips are forthcoming, right?


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