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  • #16
    Ohfor said: He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

    There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.
    I think I'm becoming verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves... Sniff...

    My son and I stayed after his practice this evening so I could hit him some extra grounders, and then we stopped and picked up a fruit smoothie on the way home and talked about his batting practice session. (His best ever...) He came home and worked on his homework with my wife, who ragged on my heinie after he got to bed for not bringing him home right as practice ended so he could right on his homework. :grouchy I nodded, "Yes, dear."

    Given the same dilemma next time, what choice do you think I'll make?
    sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ohfor
      Simply one of the best experiences in my life.

      I really miss the "Dad, you wanna go hit." or "Dad, you wanna throw."

      This past Thursday he called and said his baseball team was getting the weekend off since games start this coming weekend and they'll be hard at it every weekend until school ends.

      So, he asked for me to drive the 2 hours to pick him up so he could come home and see some friends, attend his school's winter homecoming and sell some raffle tickets for his team. Then drive him back on Sunday. He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

      There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

      We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.
      .............

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ohfor
        Simply one of the best experiences in my life.

        I really miss the "Dad, you wanna go hit." or "Dad, you wanna throw."

        This past Thursday he called and said his baseball team was getting the weekend off since games start this coming weekend and they'll be hard at it every weekend until school ends.

        So, he asked for me to drive the 2 hours to pick him up so he could come home and see some friends, attend his school's winter homecoming and sell some raffle tickets for his team. Then drive him back on Sunday. He thought he was imposing. I jumped at the chance to get him so we could "work out". It's our special thing that we do together.

        There is no better feeling than when he hits a double in the gap, slides into second and looks for me immediately. We both know that we did what others are not willing to do. I say we, because I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

        We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.

        Makes me shed a tear. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with your kids. I lost my #1 fan, my father to a sudden heart attack my rookie season. My last Fathers day gift to him was the baseball I hit for my first professional hit..A grand Slam.

        This one was for you "pops"
        Attached Files
        Last edited by hiddengem; 03-01-2006, 01:09 AM.

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        • #19
          Now for one of those "other" moments....

          First college at bat.....strike out.

          It ain't all glory.



          I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.

          He completely lost concentration. Felt a need for momentum so he strides which makes him late and he never executes the "forward by turning" move which would have eliminated the "need" because it would have filled the need. When the go signal came everything was out of position to execute the good swing so he used what was available...........his arms.

          The same hitter........two different environments........two different results.

          He also got to do this for an inning.



          Sorry about the fence in the way. Just too many players, fans, tarps etc in the way.
          Last edited by Ohfor; 03-04-2006, 04:47 PM.

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          • #20
            lack of hip rotation

            Originally posted by Ohfor
            Now for one of those "other" moments....

            First college at bat.....strike out.

            It ain't all glory.



            I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.

            He completely lost concentration. Felt a need for momentum so he strides which makes him late and he never executes the "forward by turning" move which would have eliminated the "need" because it would have filled the need. When the go signal came everything was out of position to execute the good swing so he used what was available...........his arms.

            The same hitter........two different environments........two different results.

            He also got to do this for an inning.



            Sorry about the fence in the way. Just too many players, fans, tarps etc in the way.


            ohfor,
            I noticed in Brandons clips that he really doesn't get a lot out of his hip rotation hitting. The hips don't explode open. His upper body does most of the rotation. I think he needs to keep his front(even with the belly button) elbow this will help create batspeed. I'm sure you know this already.

            EL,
            Last edited by Erik; 03-04-2006, 05:39 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by hiddengem
              This one was for you "pops"
              Dave - Nice story. Thanks for sharing.
              "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
              - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ohfor
                I believed for him until he was capable of believing for himself.

                We simply kept trying when it appeared there was no reason to continue.
                Most excellent.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Makes me shed a tear. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with your kids. I lost my #1 fan, my father to a sudden heart attack my rookie season. My last Fathers day gift to him was the baseball I hit for my first professional hit..A grand Slam.

                  This one was for you "pops"
                  BOTH your accounts make me shed a tear.


                  Baseball has always been very emotional for me, because my dad had such a passionate love affair w/ the game. He would drive for hours to watch his grandkids play in some meaningless LL game. But it wasn't meaningless to him. The day after he died, my eldest hit his first ever HR. The ball - w/ his dedication to "gramps" is still on his shelf. "I know you saw this looking down, gramps, and it was for you."


                  My dad always wanted to go to Cooperstown, but never made it. When I went, I was just overwhelmed by emotion. What would it have meant to have been there with him?


                  I'm sure many people have similar remembrances tied to other sports or other activities. But there is something about baseball that seems to invoke very special times - and build special memories - between dads and their kids.

                  And I'm not sure why. Do you think it could be that the game is SO hard? And that it is so rooted not in success, but in failure? A sport where a 30% success rate makes you a star? It seems Richard hinted at this. . . .of all the many lessons I learned from my father, his quiet guidance and confidence that I COULD accomplish the most difficult feat in all of sports - at least occasionally - was a standout.

                  And so was he.


                  I'm very pleased for you, Richard.

                  Best,

                  Scott
                  Last edited by ssarge; 03-04-2006, 09:56 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Ofhers best all -time post

                    I post this for one reason. To show that all the good that is accomplished in bp is difficult to carry to the game when under the stress of high quality pitching.
                    I get amuzed at the detailed breakdown of clips as I spend most of my time at practice or games where the above statement is the real world. Perfect swings on perfect pitches are rare squared.

                    THat is why I coach the set up and preswing...after that your own your own guys.

                    That clip is what happens in games as Ofher points out. My sons 240 at bats in HS showed me that and I haven't forgotten it.

                    My son used to get caught back there too at times...pick the front foot up and put it down with no shift. Your back side will collapse as the bat passed through the zone

                    I am probably the last person you want any observation from but all or our kids have problems with the following...his cage swing stance and his HS swing stance were considerably more narrow than the college game swing.

                    It is harder to shift/ carry whatever you want to call it when you get too wide...it seems to restrict hip movement and athletism. I am constantly bringing their feet closer...feet under arm pits for many. An easy set up fix.......I believe that most bad things that occur in any swing happen to the batter because of a bad set up or what he does as the pitcher breaks over to release.





                    Hang in there...that stuff ain't easy
                    Last edited by swingbuster; 03-05-2006, 06:35 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Buster-

                      I agree to a point. You need to get the swingpreparation right and then it has a chance of unfolding as things speed up. BAckward chaining is less effective/faces more variability in hitting than throwing.

                      Still, you need an idea of how are adjustments ideally made,always expecting the swing to be dependent on the adjustment you make.

                      In retrosct,when you fail, then you have something that helps learn from it what to do differently.

                      I alos "speculate" that the transfer to game stress is easier with more upper body emphasis than lower body, but that is mostly just my bias more than likely.I think certainly bathead/sweetspot control is better with attention to arm action,but that can be mitigated by hot bat technology.

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                      • #26
                        I think certainly bathead/sweetspot control is better with attention to arm action,but that can be mitigated by hot bat technology
                        I do not coach our JV but a nearby team came over Friday night. This other team had some great athletes 9th grade and under. These kids had a vertical bat, loose hands, pronated top hand and they just hit balls where they were pitched all night. It was a great exhibition of hitting. They had no pitch location preference you could just see there awareness of the barrel. I have always hated "throwing the hands as a cue" but you could see them directing that barrel so well.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ursa Major
                          Ohfor, comparing the bottom (more effective) swing with the top one, it seems he fans open his front hip and straightens/locks the front leg a little early. Added to that is his tendency to lean back toward the catcher slightly, all of which brings him up off the ball, which may be a cause of those groundouts. Combined with his no-stride approach and his minimal pre-load, the knee locking seems to effectively stop the rear hip rotation before contact in the later swing. (This lack of full rotation really seems to show up in brndn010406t.gif in the same directory.) His back hip, rather than taking a rotational route around to the front ("swinging the gate") goes straight forward (or maybe even a hair away from home plate), because the front knee is taking his front hip away from the plate.
                          Good points, Ursa. I noticed the same thing about hip rotation appearing to stop, at which point, he just leans back and reaches w/ his hands to finish getting to the contact point. I'm not sure if it's the knee locking or something else, but the hips definitely stop turning:





                          Another thing I agree w/ is that Brandon seems to fan open his lead knee early, during his load, whereas in the comparison to lefty-Nomar, Nomar's knee opens more during rotation of his hips/shoulders.


                          I've been addressing this same issue w/ my 11YO son lately, and a cue we've been using focuses on the lead knee: Envision a clock on the ground w/ 12:00 directly perpendicular to a line drawn across your feet. Try to keep the lead knee ~11:00 until your shoulders start turning. So far, it is helping Kevin to produce a more "inside/out", circular swing path, and he's really pounded some middle/away pitches towards RCF gap (at least in his first cage BP since last fall this past week). YMMV, but it may be worth a shot.

                          LClifton, you make some good points too about
                          Finish rotating , I find myself wanting to give him one last push to finish or have a more complete rotation.
                          But I'm really not sure what cue can help him do that? Ohfor says he's focused on turning the belly button to the pitcher, so maybe they just need to work more on that because right now, it's not happening (all the way). Perhaps opening the lead knee so early/much makes him subconsciously feel like he already has turned enough? But then another part of him realizes that the bat's not at the contact zone yet, so his arms take over? Maybe if he can keep the lead knee closed a bit longer - until rotation starts forward - he'll then "trick himself" into "I'd better keep rotating cuz I don't feel like I have turned enough yet"???

                          LClifton also said:
                          There is something that I've always like very much about Brandon's swing. His shoulders. My belief is that when the shoulders get to this position he has done several things right.
                          I realize that this pitch is a bit higher than most MLB clips, but... why is Brandon's bat above his shoulder plane line?


                          Is it because he had setup w/ good posture, and then made a hands-adjustment to a pitch that was higher than what he'd setup for? Or simply a timing issue? IOW, if he'd waited a bit longer, he could've kept the bat on a plane parallel (and below) his shoulder plane?


                          Or... is the high setting of his lead elbow, combined w/ the cupping of his right wrist, throwing the bat off the shoulder plane?


                          Anyway, maybe there's a nugget or two in this long post, maybe not. I post on the chance that someone might glean something useful. Obviously, Ohfor may not agree w/ everything (or anything) I've said. And if not, then I've just wasted a few hours; no biggie. But if he CAN glean something and it might help his son... then IMO, it's time well-spent - both for the hitter and for the student of hitting (me ).

                          Good luck guys and please keep us updated.

                          Regards,
                          Sandman

                          P.S.
                          In case anyone's concerned about bandwidth... the total of all of these graphics is ~800k. That shouldn't pose a problem, even for dial-up users.
                          Last edited by MSandman; 03-05-2006, 11:22 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Nice Post MSandman, really appreciate the visuals.

                            And to my HM aquaintances, glad to find you all somewhere, look forward to learning from you guys again.
                            "Do not dismiss what you do not understand"
                            "A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice." - Bill Cosby
                            "There are sound intellectual grounds for holding faith positions" - Fungo 22

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                            • #29
                              Good video work Sandman. I'm studying it.

                              Chesspirate.

                              Good to see you here. I suggest a signature line to everyone of your posts. Something like the following....

                              I think I'm Chesspirate but I'm not sure. Everything I know came from setpro so just assume everything I say is setpro material.....and this will give credit to Mr. Nyman for everything I ever say and takes me off the hook for having to say it everytime..........and this also gives hope to all bipolars who own intellectual property that work very hard to make sure it's protrected even though they don't know what to do with it.
                              Last edited by Ohfor; 03-05-2006, 11:32 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Suspect Steve will be spitting beer through his nostrils as he reads this, screaming, "Noooooo!"


                                I think the hip rotation may be stifled by range of motion issues, possibly involving the front foot.

                                I could not agree more that hip rotation needs to happen because of precipitate action in the middle of the body. And that opening the front foot to initiate hip rotation can and does dramatically decrease efficiency. This was a point I fought for a while, but upon which I have become enlightened.


                                However, for some kids, I have found that while IN THE DEVELOPMENTAL PROCESS, the front foot does need to open a little DURING the swing to get the hips all the way around. Because they aren't quite flexible enough and have range of motion limitations.

                                Or perhaps they ARE flexible enough, but sub-consciously feel that they are not. I know that I feel significant pressure on the outside of the front knee when I keep the front foot closed through full, hard hip rotation. It feels tight, and weird, and frankly, I don't like the feeling.

                                When I swing - in practice - I personally am able to concentrate on this, and keep the foot closed. I'll bet I wouldn't in a live swing.


                                Clearly, there is risk in allowing such opening of the foot. It can get earlier and earlier, and soon your hitter looks like an Epstein hitter in the 1-2-3 drill. Which is insidious, because it works - of a fashion. DEFINITELY NOT as efficient as the well defined (by Setpro and Englishbey) optimal. But it does somewhat work, and so it can sneak up onto you.


                                But that risk can be mitigated. And if it is, it seems to me that the developing hitter can allow his front foot to open slightly ONCE rotation is well underway.

                                t the same time, I would engage in stretching exercises so that it becomes easier to keep the foot closed. ANd at some point in the developmental process, I would stress a period of time where the foot DOES remain closed. Just to insure rotational efficiency and to have a base line checkpoint to which the hitter can always return when that is needed.

                                Later still in the developmental process, the hitter could probably drift back towards allowing the front foot to open in later rotation, IF HE CHOSE TO. Clearly, most MLB hitters DO do this. Some even do it earlier than I would advocate. However, their results indicate that the opening of the front foot is tangental to powerful torso rotation, not causal. Becasue if it was causal, they WOULDN'T be MLB hitters.


                                Richard, no idea if the closed foot is in fact sub-consciously inhibiting hip rotation in Brandon's game swing. I have seen it often enough that I would maintain it is worth discussing. (And he does allow it to come slightly more often in the cage swings. However, cause and effect is not determinitive for me. Could be that it didn't come open in the live swing because there wasn't enough force created by the hips to mandate it - meaning, I suppose, that the explanation is rooted far earlier in the swing.)

                                Best,

                                Scott

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