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  • #31
    Good points, Scott. I would still try to keep the lead knee and foot closed more than they are during the load. Hence, my 11:00 target, meaning in that slight overlap phase between load and forward rotation, aim for the lead knee to point about to 11:00. But even that's a cue; if it slips to more like 12:00, that would likely still work. But flopping it open to 1:00-2:00 by the time the lead foot even hits the ground is just too much too soon, IMO.

    If I wasn't clear, I apologize, but I certainly didn't mean to keep it closed through rotation. During rotation, let it fly!

    Just curious why you thought:
    Suspect Steve will be spitting beer through his nostrils as he reads this, screaming, "Noooooo!"

    Comment


    • #32
      Shall we...

      ?

      In this one, I've taken what appeared to me to be the frame at which each player began uncoiling his hips, plus the frame immediately before it.

      I'm certainly not the first person to point this out, but is the lead knee being opened by the turning hips or was it already opened long before rotation begins?



      I apologize if some consider my many postings as "flooding". I figure "the more I offer, the more chance that a small portion might help someone". YMMV.

      Regards,
      Sandman

      Comment


      • #33
        Sarge

        I could not agree more that hip rotation needs to happen because of precipitate action in the middle of the body.

        Why can't we just say it in real terms.....I think you did here

        because there wasn't enough force created by the hips to mandate it - meaning, I suppose, that the explanation is rooted far earlier in the swing.)

        The "game swing" had little to no hip coil and weight transfer back and he was too wide maybe conpared to previous swings ; then the back foot collapsed as his knee hinged while still bearing weight as the bat entered the contact zone because there was no weight transfered forward.

        Yeagers work measured negative hip move at minus 23 degrees average for MLB players. Williams said the coiling of the hips as you stride was the most important part of hitting.

        You cannot carry forward what did not coil...you have nothing to carry.

        If you don't coil your hips as you stride/ shift then you will have an incomplete hip rotation post foot plant. AND If you lead leg doesn't extend nearing contact following some weight shift momentum then you will have a weak or no completion of hip rotation and loss of power.

        The extension of the lead leg does power the lead side of the hips around just a few hundreds of a second before contact. It cannot power it around if the lead side doesn't have the weight. The amount.... 123% of the body weight in force at foot plant reducing to 86% at contact. You cannot just wiggle your hips and do that

        Now ...they wanted science

        Newtons 3rd law..for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the lead hip gets levered back the opposite side gets levered forward. The shoulders follow through and the rear foot drags from reactive torque right?
        Last edited by swingbuster; 03-05-2006, 02:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Sweet!

          Originally posted by MSandman
          ?

          In this one, I've taken what appeared to me to be the frame at which each player began uncoiling his hips, plus the frame immediately before it.

          I'm certainly not the first person to point this out, but is the lead knee being opened by the turning hips or was it already opened long before rotation begins?



          I apologize if some consider my many postings as "flooding". I figure "the more I offer, the more chance that a small portion might help someone". YMMV.

          Regards,
          Sandman

          You the Man!


          EL,

          Comment


          • #35
            I do not see much "knee opening " in these clips . Certainly kenny ,Gonzales, are not opening much if any. Essentially in all these what you see is body parts maintaining their relative positions ----as the pelvic region is engaged in a number of ways.


            In terms of "opening the knee during rotation" I would suggest going back and looking at a particular sideview comparison of Bonds and Jason F.'s son.

            It IS instructive --------if you know what you are looking at.

            In terms of the "front foot closed " issue , it has to do with developmental issues and is but a part of a " bigger picture " regarding how to learn how to develop greater rotational power of the torso.[Both Paul NYman and myself ---and independent of each other[meaning I had not heard his thoughts on it and he had not heard mine---said in aHitting -Mech. thread about 2 years ago that if you REALLY want to develop your rotational potential ,you should PRACTICE swinging the bat with front foot closed.]

            BUT----and this is a rather large "but"-------you HAVE to understand why you are practicing in this manner.And you have to create other kinds of movement and muscle action as part of this "restrictive" environment .In other words ,you have to undertsand the "bigger picture".

            How do I know this ? Well one reason is because of the kinds of exercises and movement patterns that I personally have engaged in over the last 3 or so years.

            Anyone who has actually seen me in person swing a bat and demonstrate various kinds of load/unload variations knows that I know how to create movement that is a function of efficient engagement of the pelvic region.

            I would argue that as a DIRECT result of my engaging in these kinds of movement patterns ----most all of which are done with the feet closed---I actually move more efficiently now at 51 ,than I did when I was 20. [In terms pelvic action and rotational movement,shifting into rotation,etc.

            If I could re-learn at 48------then younger hitters CAN learn some of this as well.[Hell even Swingbuster and Tom might be able to learn some of this under my supervision.......hope springs eternal.... in fact my ultimate "teaching fantasy" would be that those two could learn this stuff well enough that they would finally cease and desist from THEIR own fantasies of" hand jobs" ie.,,tipping ,hiding,cocking, deviate,unbinding,hand torquing, hand loading, etc ad infinitum, driving the swing.]

            I also know this because of numerous kids that have worked with me directly and actually are engaging this process [REALLY trying to learn how to develop the capacity to rotate ] in a reasonably serious manner.Some of them are getting pretty good at it .

            This process of actually practicing in ways which helps to develop rotational power and efficiency has nothing to do ,per se ,with "hitting in a game".

            It is also not about "technique".

            It is about the developmental notion of being "functionally fit" [I am using Mel Siff's definition here of functional fitness] to engage in the kinds of movement patterns that are typical of your sport. In this case ,wwe are talking about baseball and rotation.

            In this case we are talking about what I have described as kids having a "rotational deficit" in some very fundemental ways.

            With very little understanding on the part of coaches,instructors ,dads ,as to how to go about trying to overcome these basic deficits that are common to my experience with and observations of many young hitters[high school down].

            As as somewhat of an aside here,I do hope that people do understand that how elite hitters "open up" or engage the pelvic region in various ways is not remotely like most young hitters move. These kinds of comparisons are many times apples and oranges. And what may LOOK similar in terms of certain kinds of movements may ,in fact ,may not be really similar at all. {And Mike ---Sandman---it is regarding matters of form vrs. function that I told you in a conversation we had last yr.that indeed ,it is very helpful to have some pretty good understanding of muscle action,functional anatomy ,ie a trainers perspective.Things that can sometimes difficult to actually see,understand ,and fully capture on video.]


            Finally I would say that ,on a personal and practical note ,some 8years ago ,I was down in spring training watching Ken Griffey [and others of course] for about 8 days.

            I saw him for 8 days repeatedly crush balls in batting practice to every field.
            In about 90% of those swings his front leg was relatively closed,foot was almost completely closed ---and did not move at all.

            In seeing this in person and up close I will say that that is the best combination of mobility [tremendous shift anfd rotate capability] and stability [front leg front side was like a pillar of granite that he was rotating around---a tremendous ex. of a "swinging gate"] that I have EVER seen.

            Certainly that drove home the empirical fact that you do not HAVE to open the front leg /foot necessarily.

            steve

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Steve Englishbey
              I do not see much "knee opening " in these clips . Certainly kenny ,Gonzales, are not opening much if any. Essentially in all these what you see is body parts maintaining their relative positions ----as the pelvic region is engaged in a number of ways.
              My point of posting that visual wasn't to say that those 2 frames of each player showed when they opened their knee. Rather, it was to show that they do not open it earlier, like Brandon does.

              In terms of "opening the knee during rotation" I would suggest going back and looking at a particular sideview comparison of Bonds and Jason F.'s son.

              It IS instructive --------if you know what you are looking at.
              Ok, here it is again:


              In terms of the "front foot closed " issue , it has to do with developmental issues and is but a part of a " bigger picture " regarding how to learn how to develop greater rotational power of the torso.[Both Paul NYman and myself ---and independent of each other[meaning I had not heard his thoughts on it and he had not heard mine---said in aHitting -Mech. thread about 2 years ago that if you REALLY want to develop your rotational potential ,you should PRACTICE swinging the bat with front foot closed.]

              BUT----and this is a rather large "but"-------you HAVE to understand why you are practicing in this manner.And you have to create other kinds of movement and muscle action as part of this "restrictive" environment .In other words ,you have to undertsand the "bigger picture".
              That's fine, as a drill. But at some point, do you turn the hitter loose and let that foot open during rotation because it does look restrictive, to me. I obviously haven't seen your drill demonstrated, but is the intent to "go ahead and flop open the lead knee during the stride, but keep the foot closed"? (I doubt it.) I would think the hitter should keep his lead knee in too?

              As somewhat of an aside here, I do hope that people do understand that how elite hitters "open up" or engage the pelvic region in various ways is not remotely like most young hitters move. These kinds of comparisons are many times apples and oranges. And what may LOOK similar in terms of certain kinds of movements may, in fact ,may not be really similar at all. {And Mike ---Sandman---it is regarding matters of form vrs. function that I told you in a conversation we had last yr. that indeed, it is very helpful to have some pretty good understanding of muscle action, functional anatomy, ie a trainers perspective. Things that can sometimes difficult to actually see, understand, and fully capture on video.]
              I do understand, but I guess I'm not 100% sold that no good help can be obtained over the internet, even w/ video and other graphics, and that the only way to improve a hitter is to be live w/ a coach. (I'm not quoting anyone here, just reading between the lines a bit.)

              Finally I would say that ,on a personal and practical note ,some 8years ago ,I was down in spring training watching Ken Griffey [and others of course] for about 8 days.

              I saw him for 8 days repeatedly crush balls in batting practice to every field.
              In about 90% of those swings his front leg was relatively closed,foot was almost completely closed ---and did not move at all.

              In seeing this in person and up close I will say that that is the best combination of mobility [tremendous shift anfd rotate capability] and stability [front leg front side was like a pillar of granite that he was rotating around---a tremendous ex. of a "swinging gate"] that I have EVER seen.

              Certainly that drove home the empirical fact that you do not HAVE to open the front leg /foot necessarily.
              Nice story. But even tho Griffey may not have opened his front leg (back then anyway), it appears to me that most MLB hitters (at least those I have clips of) DO... so it ain't all bad either. All I'm suggesting is that, maybe for those of us who, no matter how much we practice, will never possess the ability to control our bodies like Griffey does,... would allowing the foot to open during rotation but keeping the knee/foot more closed until then perhaps help w/ finishing the rotation?
              Last edited by MSandman; 03-05-2006, 04:45 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                This is how it looks through the eyes of an xfactor/tht/arm action is king guy,AND I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

                The kid's best swing is the high school game swing.

                In that case watch his back knee turn back ti let the front knee go first.This is the right SEQUENCE, not to say that even with the right sequence he will have the right timing.

                Notice all the clips of guys with the real high level swing turn the front knee open first before the back knee turns. You may have to look at more frames to see this. The back knee can flex, BUT the lead leg nees to turn open first (externally rotate) before the back knee turns.

                Notice all the high level players get good xfactor separation. Hips turn open AFTER lead leg has started open to keep things stretching,then hips decelerate and torso turn has enough oomph to turn things to contact.

                Notice the kid is doing drills which seem to force him to turn the back knee forward out of sequence. This is associate4d with spinning the whole body (torso and hips) and leaving the bat behind (which is one reason the bat does not line up with the shoulder link well- this is tricky becasue the question is also about when in the swing plane top speed is reached early vs late spatially speaking - early for high level types, later for kid).

                The kid has to sway back to keep batspeed up in both the cage and college clip. Weight gets stuck on back in the college clip.

                I don;t "belive" you can stop spinning/getting late (long swing) batspeed unless you get the lower body in sequence.

                As an arm action is king guy, I think Sandman is on the right track with keep front foot closed until shoulder turn starts, at least that acknowledges there is some sort of lower/upper relationship.

                The front leg is going to want to turn open when the back elbow starts down by external rotation (synchronized external rotation).You need to avoid "premature external rotation of BOTH the back arm and lead leg. IF you just keep the front foot closed. the back elbow is going to start down early and then there is no way to resist spinning/no way to keep the hands back when the front leg does turn open.

                I would recommend keeping the back elbow up (delay start of back arm external rotation) until the lead leg turns open. and do not let the front leg turn open too early.Still, for a belly up swing, the front foot needs to have opened some before toe touch except for the outside location.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Donny:

                  The extension of the lead leg does power the lead side of the hips around just a few hundreds of a second before contact.
                  It does? I just extended my lead leg as I was sitting here typing.

                  Nothing happened to "power" my hips.

                  Did I do it wrong?

                  Is "power" really the word you intended, here?


                  I keep coming back to Dixon:

                  MYTHS ASSOCIATED WITH THE HIPS: "Legs turn the hips ([instead] Torso turns the legs)"


                  [and; now NOT in the MYTHS section:]

                  "The legs are supports. The legs do not push, pull, twist, or turn on their own."


                  [and]

                  "The front leg, bent and rigid does not collapse but as it accepts the body's entire weight it straightens out and becomes a straight - rigid brake that the weight is transferred against in hitting and against and over for pitching - 'the handle of the whip.'"
                  Try as I might, I can't conceive of how a brake POWERS a car. I guess in a Prius, it can power UP the BATTERY. But it isn't propelling the car.


                  I would also note that this statement by Dixon - "The legs do not push, pull, twist, or turn on their own [emphasis added]," if true would tend to demonstrate that Yeager measuring pounds of force - of, for example, the back foot against the ground - has limited value beyond the theoretic (apologies in advance if I am misapplying his work)

                  Not to mention that "push off the rear leg" is quite possibly the worst cue I can conceive of if you want to actually treat a young person to hit.

                  Yeager seems to me to be a VERY bright guy, and I am not particularly arguing w/ his results. But I would say it would be useful for him to observe more how people actually hit in field conditions, and to explore which cues cause the majority of them to actually accomplish the desired behavior. For this Donny, I do give you credit. At least you are out there in the trenches, sweating and swearing w/ the rest of us.

                  But, I severely digress.




                  Newtons 3rd law..for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the lead hip gets levered back the opposite side gets levered forward.
                  Suspect this law is not relevant in the manner you apply it.

                  I'm an unschooled, uneducated guy, with a rather simple intellect. But I THINK what Newton's third law means is related to how two different physical objects react against one another. For example, a fish attempts to propel itself by moving it's tail back and forth. Done in a vacuum, it would not work - the fish would not move. When done in water, the water reacts, and the fish is propelled. Same w/ a bird in the air as it attempts to fly.

                  But Newton's Law can't be applied to the fish acting against itself, or to the bird acting against itself. (Can't swin w/out the water or fly w/out the air, no matter what gyrations are attempted by the body. Meaning, I would think, Newton's Third Law has no relevance in how body parts react against each other, interact with each other.) So how does this law apply to a hip coil in the manner you specify? Or to any action of the body against itself. I can take action to coil my hips and then simply release the coil. No REaction is mandated.

                  More specifically, I can coil my hips 23 degrees, and then any number of variables can happen as I uncoil them in an attempt to swing a bat. Most do not seem particularly helpful to bringing a bat to a specific place in space / time at high speed.

                  I just tried it again at 30 degrees, meaning I am now above average (which rarely happens).

                  Same variety of results seem possible.

                  Next I tried it at 0 degrees. I was still able to obtain a variety of results. One of which was that the hips rotated 90 degrees in the opposite direction.

                  A VERY UN-equal reaction - if you will.



                  Yeagers work measured negative hip move at minus 23 degrees average for MLB players. Williams said the coiling of the hips as you stride was the most important part of hitting.

                  You cannot carry forward what did not coil...you have nothing to carry.
                  Are you using "coiling" and "weight shift" as interchangable, synonomous terms? I don't think I can support that. It seems to me that they are entirely separate concepts, and that either can be performed independently. Or not at all.

                  I am not arguing the merits / lack thereof of EITHER hip coiling or weight shift. Simply stating that they are entirely separate concepts which it appears you use interchangeably.



                  I could not agree more that hip rotation needs to happen because of precipitate action in the middle of the body.
                  Why can't we just say it in real terms.....I think you did here

                  because there wasn't enough force created by the hips to mandate it - meaning, I suppose, that the explanation is rooted far earlier in the swing.)
                  Because words mean things. Specific things.


                  Regards,

                  Scott
                  Last edited by ssarge; 03-05-2006, 06:40 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    As an arm action is king guy, I think Sandman is on the right track with keep front foot closed until shoulder turn starts, at least that acknowledges there is some sort of lower/upper relationship.
                    How can this possibly be reconciled with Epstein?

                    Do the Torque and 1-2-3 drills start w/ the shoulders open?

                    Tom, this just doesn't tie together with my interpretation of your statements on many previous occasions.

                    But in my opinion, you are more correct with the above statement.


                    Regardless, I am confused as to what you really think on this topic.

                    And it is important to me, because this ISN'T a theoretical intellectual exercise for me. I've got kids who want to learn to hit. One of whom is sitting down the hall.

                    Regards,

                    Scott

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Someone requested (privately) that I put these together.

                      I've tried to sync them to the ball reaching the contact area. I apologize for the file size (2 mb), but the originals totaled about 5.5mb. At least we're on a new page in the thread now, so it's not as bad as adding another 2mb to 5.5.



                      Enjoy,
                      Sandman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Scott-

                        Can you be more specific ? I am not quite sure what you think is inconsistent.

                        I think Sandman's thought process is a good one, but not as accurately reflective of cause effect as possible.

                        I do not think it agrees with Epstein who has the details pretty well worked out, but Sandman is getting there.

                        The upper and lower limbs need/want to work together. Nyman recognized this in throwing as "mapping" but did not appreciate the details/importance as well as Hodge who beautifully described how to synch up the back arm and lead leg action and how to avoid "premature external rotation" and how to avoid flying open. the same things apply to hitting.

                        When you "wind the rubber band" this is the same as synchronized external rotation (Epsetein) and the same as prelaunch tht (Mankin).Same as "stepover" in the Nyman throwing model.In the hodge throwing model,the "cue" is "when the front thigh turns over (lead leg external rotation) THEN the throwing arm comes up (external rotation)".

                        Trying to improve the sequence of loading by keeping the front foot closed does NOT directly address the need to synchronize external rotation of the back arm and lead leg.Nor does it recognize the dominant role of the arms in directing how they get supported by the lower body/limbs. Somehow in addition to delaying the premature opening of the lead leg, you have to synch it to the back arm. This is a big problem with Hiddengem's swing as well (see Schmidt thread). Watch how early his front leg opens which is associated with his back arm externally rotating (both back arm and lead leg prematurely externally rotate in his case). Then he RE internally rotates the lead leg and then re-externally rotates it again, BUT the rear arm has already lost the load/extended at the elbow so upper/lower body synch and sequence are degraded.

                        This is hard to explain in words. Get Hodges tape and watch it over and over until you understand how to avoid premature external rotation and how to get the upper and lower body in synch and realize that the same thing applies to hitting as well as throwing.

                        The next phase after the rubber band winding/pre-launch tht/synchronized external rotation (or perhapsd optimally the back arm "permitting" the lead leg to externally rotate first) is the drop and tilt. This is the same as "tht at launch" or pulling the knob or the way Steve E explains it that I quoted above.

                        This is where the lead arm takes over and the shoulders begin to tilt which is what increase the stretch/coil/helps keep the shoulders closed (tilting shoulders to optimize coil dynamics rather than shoulderrs opening. This keeps the shoulders/player from "flying open".Shoulders are "tilting" not turning, preceded by internal rotation of lead arm.

                        This is one thing that Dixon (and Nyman) do NOT seem to understand. Just because the front leg turns open does NOT mean the front shoulder has to follow/fly open. The front leg needs to turn open while emphasis on internal rotation of the lead arm and shoulder tilt (not turn) of the shoulders then creates additional coil (keeps from flying open) that can be efficiently reversed when the bathead launches with last fraction of a second plane adjustment and tswing timing adjustment.This understanding avoids encouraging the out of sequnence limb actions that come from the "turn back hip into front" type advice that messes up loading/timing.

                        ALL high level swings show the same micro sequence (some overlapping).

                        As Mark says, look at the video:

                        For example, look at the high level players that Sandman shows for 2 frames which he calls hips starting to uncoil and frame before it,here is what my eyes see:

                        LUGO back arm and leadleg have already externally rotated together.
                        lead arm has has already started to internally rotate
                        shoulders have already started to tilt
                        hips have already started to open?”project” (“V” coming out of back waist in front,drop and tilt has started.

                        GRIFFEY back arm and lead leg have already externally rotated together lead arm is just starting to internally rotate (he has long swing radius and lead arm has been stretching up to this point. He is still sitting (sticking butt out)shouldershave NOT started to tilt yet.Hips have not started to project yet.just beginning to drop and tilt.

                        TEJADA back arm and lead leg have already externally rotate together.lead arm has just started to internally rotate.shoulders have just started to tilt, hips have just started to project.justbeginning drop and tilt.

                        SORIANO back arm and lead leg have already externally rotated together.lead arm has started to internally rotate.shoulders have started to tilt. hips have started to project drop and tilt has started

                        AROD back arm and lead leg just starting to externally rotate together. lead arm stretchcing no internal rotation of lead arm yet. hips have not started projecting (he is winding rubber band, no drop and tilt yet).arms are moving, not scaps, but this is carefully timed synched, not "independent" arm action.

                        they all do the same sequence. not the kid.

                        Kid also “prematurely externally rotates” in throwing. In the case of throwing this typically is seen as lead arm coming up (externally rotating) BEFORE the lead leg externally rotates, and in addition,he does not kepp internally rotating the glove arm well so coil/loading is degraded. Working on this sequence in both throwing and hitting will teach him to resemble the mlb players more.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Tom,

                          Just a suggestion... consider editing your post and re-inserting the image you discussed (the 6 hitters at start of hip rotation and the frame before), so that we can read your comments w/ the picture right there.

                          Just in case you're not familiar w/ how... click on the little yellow/gray mountain icon on the toolbar and paste this (minus the quotes):
                          "http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Knee%20turned%20open%20by%20rotation.gif"

                          Don't worry, browsers will only download it once (in Internet Explorer, to the Temporary Internet Files folder), so it's not like repeating a graphic on the same page will increase download times.

                          Just a thought.

                          Thanks,
                          Mike

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Tom:

                            Can you be more specific ? I am not quite sure what you think is inconsistent
                            .

                            Your quote:
                            I think Sandman is on the right track with keep front foot closed until shoulder turn starts
                            How can you advocate keeping the front foot closed until shoulder turn starts when Epstein, who is your swing model, advocates opening the front foot before the swing even starts?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ohfor
                              Chesspirate.

                              Good to see you here. I suggest a signature line to everyone of your posts. Something like the following....

                              I think I'm Chesspirate but I'm not sure. Everything I know came from setpro so just assume everything I say is setpro material.....and this will give credit to Mr. Nyman for everything I ever say and takes me off the hook for having to say it everytime..........and this also gives hope to all bipolars who own intellectual property that work very hard to make sure it's protrected even though they don't know what to do with it.
                              Is there a reason for this? Do I know you? or more importantly do you know me?

                              If you do know anything about my posting history, i've disagreed with nyman plenty. Of course, i like a lot of what he had to say as well, some worked for me some didn't. I play, so i have to understand it and be able to relate it to my swing, sometimes 'cues' become important just to get through an at bat, even if the 'cue' isn't right.

                              Steve E and Fungo will both know, and hopefully admit, that i didn't take thier words as gospel either when i met them in town. Although, i really appreciated both of the visits, and think Steve has an amazing understanding of what he's trying to get across, and Fungo is close behind in his understanding.

                              This response from you on my first post here is nothing less than a personal attack, it is unneccesary and will probably affect future conversation between us in the future (if any).

                              Please, tell me what your problem is. What angle you see things, etc. No need to PM, might as well stay forward and just put it out there.
                              "Do not dismiss what you do not understand"
                              "A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice." - Bill Cosby
                              "There are sound intellectual grounds for holding faith positions" - Fungo 22

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Wait a minute, You're Teacherman. Don't know why i didn't catch that.

                                I had a great conversation on the phone with you not but two months ago. You were very nice on the phone. What changed???
                                "Do not dismiss what you do not understand"
                                "A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice." - Bill Cosby
                                "There are sound intellectual grounds for holding faith positions" - Fungo 22

                                Comment

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