Advise requested

[MSandman]

May I respectfully suggest that you DO take this up privately? Nothing seems to derail a thread more than personal issues and I, for one, would like to see this thread stay on track.

Thank you,
Mike

[chesspirate]

Mike, i respect your request, and probably would have agreed with you a couple of months ago, unfortunately, he made a public attack, no need to hit and run in my mind. I'd like an explanation publicaly.

I will try to keep on track beyond this, a great thread so far.

[Mark H]

Maybe I skimmed it too fast. I thought he was picking on Paul, not you but then I didn't understand the context so maybe not. I tend to skim till I see some interesting information.

[Ohfor]

My sarcasm is not directed at you Chesspirate. Sorry for the confusion.

Instead, it is directed to the bipolar huckster in Connecticut who is overly cautious about his intellectual property. Why I don't know. At the current rate he may make a DVD in the year 2020. In the meantime, another 100 or 200 Dad's and sons will go without his "protected" sh*t and their window of opportunity will close. While he could be selling the DVD's and running a business (now there's an interesting idea) he'll continue to cry foul about you or I or someone else sharing what we've learned.

The info is good. It just doesn't flow fast enough to keep interest. Thank God there is a replacement. Now all the good people have an outlet for the good info.........and it's timely. The new outlet has enough business sense to turn a profit rather than cry like a baby and ban people from the site when you call a scap a scap or a load a load or God forbid the magic elbow leads the hand.

Don't get me wrong.....the money flows.....one way.....toward the east.....it's just the information never comes westward.

How ya like it Paul? Go ahead. Post on your site all the evils of Teacherman. You can use that as the next reason for not shipping product. I bet this could cost your customers another 6 months. You're losing big time.

Go ahead and send the letter.........truth is the first defense.

[chesspirate]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Misscommunication on the internet is an easy thing to come by.
Thanks again for clearing that up. ( I think I get it now, personally surprising!)



moooving on

[ssarge]

I really do respect the desire to protect IP - for ego reasons, as well as for business. I have never faulted Paul for that, and don't now. And I actually think a subscription site is a reasonable idea, and that it may be a sustainable business model. As long as content continues to be generated.


But the whole situation reminds me of King Herod. Who ruled Israel, as a representative of Caesar. But who wasn't Jewish. Herod killed off wives and children because of perceived slights and perceived disloyalty. Then lamented the fact that there was no one left to love. All the while giving lip service to the Jewish faith and social habits (for example, he refused to eat pork).

Causing commentators even 2,000 years ago to remark, "It is safer to be Herod's pig, than Herod's son."


When loyalty is demanded but not reciprocated, reasonable people seek alternatives. It appears that has happened. And the reaction is predictable. I don't know who is left to turn out the lights. And I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that whoever IS left is a pig. It is a forced analogy. But accurate in this regard - the animal / person who says nothing - only listens - can never offend.

But also can not learn as effectively as the person who questions what he doesn't understand. And expresses disagreement with that with which he disagrees. This is not disloyal. I suppose it CAN be, but the vast majority of the time at Setpro, it wasn't, IMO.

And it is NOT disloyal to post at another site, or to share ideas at another site. It is not even disloyal to forget to put "the according to Nyman" sobriquet on every single thing you post. Simple understanding of marketing will tell you that constantly doing that wears a little thin after a while, and is a BAD idea. (Check out Kharma's references to Mike Marshall on eTeamZ baseball, for example.)

Beyond that, but still speaking of marketing, an awful lot of the people attracted to Setpro - especially the softball crowd - over the past 2-3 years were led there by others posting on various internet boards. Myself included, but I'm far from the only one. And BTW, not expecting - and certainly not receiving - even a token of (verbal) appreciation. But also not expecting - or appreciating - scorn, verbal lambast, and abuse.


I'll tell you what IS disloyal. Expecting folks not to react when they create revenue for a business by influencing others, who subsequently pay money but don't receive value. As is accusing people of not supporting a business model when there IS no discernible business model. And if I am mistating this, I am sincerely pleased to hear that the numerous dissatisfied customers of whom I am aware have had their issues resolved.

I personally am still owed a medecine ball and an upgrade to version 1.3. Minor, compared to the situation in which others find themselves.


Best regards,

Scott

[chesspirate]

Allright, i really would like to add to this conversation now.

I want to go all the way back to the first post and the rollover swing, i wanted to comment because i have this tendancy in the cages as well. I personally believe that the 'groundout' occurs when i start the swing early. Since i'm early things don't stay together and i end up pushing or reaching with my hands, although to my friends/casual observers they can't catch it. Once i tell myself to start later, or let the ball get deeper etc, things seem to get much better.

[ssarge]

Chesspirate:

A VERY familiar pattern. Without seeing a clip, I would still bet you have diagnosed accurately.

Best regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Good Work Sandman on OHFERS SWINGS..this should be very helpful to see them side by side and see the following

Loose upper body, more narrow stance and a good shoulder turn will get supported by a good hip turn sometimes. These hips turns in these three shots are better from L to R

HS game swing he shifted his weight behind the center of mass into his rear hip well. You cannot shift forward unless you "TURN" backwards . His rear foot kicks some dirt as it goes weighless during contact. His head shift back in the load

The middle swing...there was no negative movement of the weight behind the center of mass and then he turned forward weakly. His head shift forward in the load

College swing...wide, no weight shift or coil back behind the center of mass so no weight to shift forward...stayed on back leg, hinged it with weight and it collapsed.No momentum transfer. In baseball , I think you must counter the pitchers move with hip coil, and weight transfer back during the break over. Whether you call the next move, push, fall, shift, stride, or uncoil or unload...doesn't matter but something must happen here.

[swingbuster]

Ssarge,

If the scap can load the top ; the extension of the lead leg can finish the bottom.

I hear you on all the arm/ leg stuff vs middle and core but to say that lead leg is "NOT JUICING those swings/ completing the hip rotation .....sorry...I won't share that opinion that if that is what you saying and I am not sure you are. That is all that is left to finish it just prior to contact.

To say the core is straightening the leg doesn't match what the clips appear to show in striding swings when the head moves with the stride before front foot plant. Somebody recently posted a young lady with a great swing that had considerable weight shift and subsequent weight block and led leg extension through contact.

I agree in many "quick swings" it is probabaly the middle working the legs.


You can over do any part of the swing and that is a point well taken but lead leg extension and the relative power in the quadriceps group cannot be X ed ot of the equation. It is too easy to see that force being driven back to the catcher

Maybe Newton 3 is not applicable but if the pelvis is a box and you push one side back the other will go forward if it is on an axis. The lead shoulder is connected into this action by the torso

.

[Steve Englishbey]

Earlier ,in response to something I had said ----something that amounted to my attempt to make a distinction between analysis vrs. application [and form vrs. function],Sandman said the following:

"I do understand ,but I guess I'm not 100% sold that NO GOOD HELP CAN BE OBTAINED over the internet,even w/video and other graphics ,and that THE ONLY way to improve a hitter is TO BE LIVE W/A COACH. [I'm not quoting here,just reading between the lines a bit.]" .

[emphasis mine]

I'm not quite sure why my comments -----comments basically saying that it does help to have what I have referred to as a "trainer's perspective " with regards to issues involving "function" and application----would elicit a somewhat hyperbolic response.

Nowhere have I suggested that video analysis is not helpful ,important ,revealing ,etc., in any number of ways .

[And most certainly, nowhere have I said that some kind of generic "live coach" is a good and necessary alternative to reasonably good internet video analysis .]

As I thought I had made clear to you ,your video stuff is good, especially in terms of getting people to better "see what they need to see."

Recall , that I told you essentially to "keep putting the visual stuff up there".It's very helpful to many people I'm sure.

But ,what I'm talking about here in terms of crertain aspects of form vrs.function understandings----what I said to you last yr. on the phone--goes beyond analysis ie, it goes beyond-- simply put--- "seeing".

And goes to the issue of "how do I get somebody to move like they need to move? " How do you practice better movement ? How do you go about effecting sequencing of movement ? How do you ---or can you--- practice certain components and then tie those components together better?Etc ,Etc.
And I am not at all here meaning that any and all kinds of the typical ways that most people do go about "practicing " is terribly effective .I do not at all think this.

Simply put ,as Scott asked earlier : "How do you build a better swing ?"

Clearly ,when we look at elite hitters ,it is obvious that they do not move like most hitters we see here and elsewhere.

I do realize that there is a genetic factor here and I certainly do not discount this as being a very large factor in terms of elite athletic movement of any kind.

But I will also argue that ,based on my experience as a teacher of hitting and as a trainer of athletes, I do think that there are ways at getting at the issue of getting people " to do what they need to do" in terms using the body more effectively to swing a bat.

As I have said elswhere----even with the best information available thru the internet in terms of analysis ------most people will not be able to effectively APPLY that information. And as I have said a number of times ---doing it , understanding it ,and teaching it ,are three DISTINCT modes of understanding .They are not necessarily ,or ipso facto, strongly related to each other .

This is something that has become increasingly obvious to me over the last 5 yrs. in terms of most people's inability to go from understanding ---via internet analysis--- to on the ground application,if you will.

This was my point to you last yr., and it is my point now[to whoever is interested ],and it will no doubt be my point for at least the foreseeable future.

steve

[Erik]

Nyman

I really do respect the desire to protect IP - for ego reasons, as well as for business. I have never faulted Paul for that, and don't now. And I actually think a subscription site is a reasonable idea, and that it may be a sustainable business model. As long as content continues to be generated.


But the whole situation reminds me of King Herod. Who ruled Israel, as a representative of Caesar. But who wasn't Jewish. Herod killed off wives and children because of perceived slights and perceived disloyalty. Then lamented the fact that there was no one left to love. All the while giving lip service to the Jewish faith and social habits (for example, he refused to eat pork).

Causing commentators even 2,000 years ago to remark, "It is safer to be Herod's pig, than Herod's son."


When loyalty is demanded but not reciprocated, reasonable people seek alternatives. It appears that has happened. And the reaction is predictable. I don't know who is left to turn out the lights. And I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that whoever IS left is a pig. It is a forced analogy. But accurate in this regard - the animal / person who says nothing - only listens - can never offend.

But also can not learn as effectively as the person who questions what he doesn't understand. And expresses disagreement with that with which he disagrees. This is not disloyal. I suppose it CAN be, but the vast majority of the time at Setpro, it wasn't, IMO.

And it is NOT disloyal to post at another site, or to share ideas at another site. It is not even disloyal to forget to put "the according to Nyman" sobriquet on every single thing you post. Simple understanding of marketing will tell you that constantly doing that wears a little thin after a while, and is a BAD idea. (Check out Kharma's references to Mike Marshall on eTeamZ baseball, for example.)

Beyond that, but still speaking of marketing, an awful lot of the people attracted to Setpro - especially the softball crowd - over the past 2-3 years were led there by others posting on various internet boards. Myself included, but I'm far from the only one. And BTW, not expecting - and certainly not receiving - even a token of (verbal) appreciation. But also not expecting - or appreciating - scorn, verbal lambast, and abuse.


I'll tell you what IS disloyal. Expecting folks not to react when they create revenue for a business by influencing others, who subsequently pay money but don't receive value. As is accusing people of not supporting a business model when there IS no discernible business model. And if I am mistating this, I am sincerely pleased to hear that the numerous dissatisfied customers of whom I am aware have had their issues resolved.

I personally am still owed a medecine ball and an upgrade to version 1.3. Minor, compared to the situation in which others find themselves.


Best regards,

Scott

Scott,
what drills can you do with a medicine ball?


EL,

[ssarge]

what drills can you do with a medicine ball?

Erik:

Build the body's core muscles, I guess.

I didn't order a medecine ball per se. It is just something included in a Setpro training system. When my Setpro system was eventually shipped, there was a note that the medecine ball would be shipped separately. Hasn't been.

Best regards,

Scott

[Ohfor]

Eric,

Where did your post from this morning go? Did the law man knock on his door? I saw you were logged on to setpro earlier. Maybe the law man delivered a riddle or two, huh? "Give them what they paid for or else!" That's a good riddle. You know.....the best way of learning.

from Paul Nyman....

The "riddle me this" is the most effective method for getting someone to actually LEARN something.

Why?

Because it removes the dependency factor.

The following is from motor control and learning research:

Feedback Can Hinder Skill Learning

An effect of feedback on skill learning that many might not expect is that can hinder the learning process and, in some cases acting make learning worse than it would have been otherwise. This effect is especially evident when a beginning learned becomes dependent on feedback that will not be available in a test situation. Typically, performance improvement the learner experience during the practice deteriorates in the test situation. In fact, in some situations, not only does the performance deteriorate when feedback is withdrawn, but the test performance is no better than if feedback had not been given at all.

All the research that's been done regarding learning emphatically demonstrates that learning only takes place when the the person is forced to actively engaged in what is called the commentator process. And that by supplying answers only what you do is create what is called feedback dependency. And what occurs with this feedback dependency is what appears to be performance improvement but in actuality results in little if any transfer to long-term performance (learning).

My "giving answers" is nothing more than creating a feedback dependency, i.e. you really don't learn anything (long-term application).

Those parents and coaches who have actively "bought in" to my "riddle me this" methodology other ones who achieve the most successful results (long-term success).

I'm doing my best to make sure he "learns by riddle". I thinks it's important that he learns this point real well. Don't you agree? If I can get a law man to knock on his door everyday it's my guess he will learn to solve the riddle.

We could just tell him....."SHIP THE SH*T"! But, that would just be "feedback dependency". From the above quote you can see that most people don't learn that way. So, let's see if we can help him learn. You know, the long term application. Good teachers love to see their students' light bulb go on. Let's see if his is capable of illuminating. Let's see if we can have him babble to the officer frequently enough so that the answer to the "riddle" becomes obvious.

This would be the equivalent of "being forced to actually engage in what is called the commentator process". You know........this commentator process..........."Yes, sir, Mr. Officer. No, sir, Mr. Officer. I'll get it right out sir."

Anyone have setpro horror stories email them to [email protected]. I think a consolidated list may have an effect on the Riddler. Right Batman?

[MSandman]

Point well taken, Steve.

And I apologize if I came across a bit harsh. I guess I too was doing some reading between the lines and was coming away w/ we're "all wasting our time out here, viewing clips, discussing things, etc., because... in the end... it can't help us feel what we need to do; that must be shown live".

No hard feelings.