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  • need advice: do i talk or not talk to coach

    i just got home from work (late mind u)and got some reall wierd news from my son. i really dont know where to start but he goes.

    since my son made the junior high team i have been hands off with his pitching not wanting to over work him and also interferr with the coaches work program. my son has pitched 2 games for the team 1 preseason and reg and i have noticed that he was getting higher in his arm slot then when i was working with him(he won both games). i was hey if it works then leave it alone, but tonite he tells me the inside of his elbow is bothering him just above the elbow on the forearm. i remeber someone posting on a thread about elbow hurting and to hold the arm in a L position and flex the hand back so the palm is up and which side of the elbow hurts. he tells me inside not outside and its not a sharp pain more of a dull soreness.

    this is where it gets real interesting. i mentioned that it might be from him throwing from a higher arm slot as he is nearly at a 3/4 armslot now and he tells me that the coach is telling him to throw from there and he want him to try and get it even higher. i asked him when did all this come about and he told me right before the preseason game, that the p coach want him to throw from as high as i can or from over the top as much as i can. i was kinda dumb founded not knowing what to tell him.

    here is a brief history of my son throwing.

    my son always had a strong arm since he started playing and when he threw the ball and really did it with out thinking he would drop down and throw from the side. the coaches would go nuts and tell him he had to throw over the top and since i did not know any better i was telling him the same thing. but when he would go over the top u never knew where the ball was going to go. so when he was 9 and show desire to pitch i was ok lets do some research on how to pitch. i went to the web and read as much as i could find on pitching. mind u i am no expert just tried to explain to him what i found and read. that year was a disaster he threw hard but had not accurately. the next year the same thing till about half the season was over. i noticed that every now and then he would drop down to side arm and throw pretty good. i was talking to a friend who just happened to be a x-MLB pitcher of 8-9 years in the majors and i told him what i was going thru. he told me to have him throw to me and not tell him how to throw but just throw the ball and see where he would end up. then have him get on his right knee with his left foot on the groung and throw and see where he comes from then both knees on the ground and throw and that should tell me where his arm slot is and low and behold he threw from a side arm slot. once i found that out i took him to my friend to evaluate him on his mechanics and see what he thought. he said he saw no problems and told me what to look for as far as problems and bad habits if they should arise. once he started to pitch totally from the side his accuracy increased and made allstars that year. that is when i went and started to find as much as could about sidearmers. since then he has pitched 2 seasons this way and done few pitching camps. we have taken what we could and applied it to his style of pitching. he also threw the entire off season this past year and even got pointers and some lessons from the current H.S. pitching coach who never even tied to change him arm slot wise. even made the junior high team throwing the same way.

    now so u know when my son and i would practice pitching generally friday's and sunday's.(weather permitting) he would throw warm ups about 30-40 throws and then he would pitch to me from 60 feet and pitch about 70-100 pitches all fastball 2 seam 4 seam and about 15-20 cutters in about a 2-3 hour period. till my knees could no longer take the sqauting position or he would say i am tired dad. now i would always ask at least 3-4 time during our sessions are u ok u want to go home or do some bp or fielding drills.

    since my son has been throwing sidearm he has never complained about elbow pain or shoulder pain or any discomfort or soreness.

    should i talk to the p coach or not or should i talk to the H.S. p coach and see what he says.

    sorry for the long essay
    Last edited by son who is sidearm; 03-08-2008, 12:04 AM.

  • #2
    First, health trumps everything. Either you or he has got to go to the coach and tell him your son has some pain. See how he deals with it; if he poo-poos it, you've got a problem and have to go to a higher authority -- the doctor.

    Second, I think if you prepare in your head a little script like you've done with your very well-considered post, you have a good chance to persuade the coach to let him go back to his old ways. I think the approach should be respectful, but otherwise go something like this: "I understand you've tried to get my son to throw from a more three-quarters slot. We realize that the vast majority of successful pitchers throw from 3/4 or straight over the top, and believe me we've tried several times to make that change. But, he's lost control each time but, when he's gone back to his sidearm motion, he's become an All-star. And, I questioned (ex-major-leaguer) on this and had him work with him, and he agrees that the sidearm motion is the way to go for him. So, while it's your decision as to which kids are on the team and which play, I ask that you let him just throw with his sidearm motion -- both for his safety and because that's the only way he's had success over the years. And, of course, throwing from that angle can be very discomfiting to batters (especially righties who aren't used to seeing the ball coming from that release point)."

    By the way, Walter Johnson -- the best righthanded pitcher of the 20th Century not fingered by Brian MacNamee-- was a sidearmer who resisted coaches' calls for him to change his motion.

    Ursa
    sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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    • #3
      thx ursa i will try and talk to the coach but so u know i have seen 3 other side arm pitcher about the same age as my son. 2 where no where near as accurate or throwing as hard as my son the other is about the same as him but i think is a year older

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      • #4
        should i talk to the p coach or not or should i talk to the H.S. p coach and see what he says.

        If your son is a little boy who still needs his hand held, go talk to the coach. If your son is maturing into a young man he should talk to the coach. It's your son's game. You're not his agent. Put the helicopter back in the hanger.

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        • #5
          Junior High. Already seen by the HS coach and he liked what he saw?

          Prep your son with some advice. Namely, he tells the Pcoach that he cannot change his arm slot going forward. It is painful. And that he will begin to lower it to a point where it becomes comfortable again.

          I'm sure this guy is not video taping your son. If I had to guess, the shoulders and elbow are out of alignment when he tries throwing more overhand.

          Have your son pick up some rocks and throw it at a mailbox. That is his natural arm slot.

          Nolan Ryan, Whitey Ford, and Bob Gibson also threw out of low 3/4 arm slots.

          Jim Palmer was over the top. He had arm problems. If you throw over the top, your glove side shoulder has to dip way down and this is often too awkward of a body position for anyone.

          -scott
          Last edited by APPpitch; 03-08-2008, 05:53 AM.
          "There are no miracles in sports. Miracles have been rehearsed hundreds of times in practice." - Scott Waz

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TG Coach View Post
            should i talk to the p coach or not or should i talk to the H.S. p coach and see what he says.

            If your son is a little boy who still needs his hand held, go talk to the coach. If your son is maturing into a young man he should talk to the coach. It's your son's game. You're not his agent. Put the helicopter back in the hanger.
            You know, you are a really bad word that I wont type here for making this kind of remark. Exactly at what age do we stop being parents? Until my kid leaves my house, I am responsible for him/her. I would encourage my child to address any issue or problem first on their own, but it is still my duty to watch out for them. Your comment about hovering is stupid and uncalled for.
            Last edited by dw8man; 03-08-2008, 07:21 PM.

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            • #7
              It's your responsibility to look out for them. It's also your responsibility to help them grow by letting them handle as much of their situations as possible. A teenager is not a baby. Parents who don't are leading their kids down a path where they will become adults and unable to fend for themselves. If you spend the teen years going after coaches bring a lawn chair and a good book to the games to pass the time. Your son won't be playing. That's what happens to the kids of helicopter parents.

              It's not your baseball experience. You had your turn. It's your son's baseball experience. You are not his player agent. If you think you are, good luck getting along with coaches.

              A helicopter parent is a term for a person who pays extremely close attention to his or her child or children, particularly at educational institutions. They rush to prevent any harm or failure from befalling them or letting them learn from their own mistakes, sometimes even contrary to the children's wishes. They are so named because, like a helicopter, they hover closely overhead, rarely out of reach whether their children need them or not.

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              • #8
                by any mean am i a hovering parent. i dont go to practices and only go to games that i am able too or ones that i really want to see. i dont approach the coaches unless they talk to me. my concern now is my son's health at this point.

                today at practice the coach asked how his arm was today and he said it was sore and point out where it hurt at. the coaches response was that is cause ur throwing from a higher slot and that ur using different muscle the u did when u were throwing side arm, this is what my son told me. i was at work today and was not at his practice. my son tried to tell him that he was not comfortable throwing from the higher slot but the coach is insitsting he stays in a higher slot. his reason was that side arm pitcher rarely make the bigs or do colleges look at them and if they do they only last for a few years.

                i am sorry but this is a red flag to me. i dont want to tell my son to disreguard what the coaches tell him for they are his coaches. but do they really know and have the wellfair on my son in mind. i have not done anything as of yet i just told my son to throw from where he is comfortable if the coaches say anything to do what he feels he has too. what he feels is right or or try what the coaches say

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                • #9
                  SWTSA,

                  If your son tells the pitching coach that it really hurts when he tries to elevate his arm slot (iow's the truth), then the pitching coach will no longer enforce it. If he does continue to enforce it, then step in.... I would.

                  There are many guys who throw sidearm without shoulder and elbow pain. As a coach, I have had pitchers drop to side arm/ submarine who were having extended periods of pain with great deal of success.....But, I have never tried to make a kid who threw 3/4 or lower raise his arm slot.

                  There is no such thing as perfect mechanics, only perfect for the individual using them.
                  My own signature is not impressive, so I selected one that was...
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Dee is a coach. Please notice how his advice starts.

                    "If your son tells the pitching coach that it really hurts..."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by son who is sidearm View Post
                      the coaches response was that is cause ur throwing from a higher slot and that ur using different muscle the u did when u were throwing side arm
                      This is wrong.

                      What this sounds like is early medial epicondylitis.


                      Originally posted by son who is sidearm View Post
                      my son tried to tell him that he was not comfortable throwing from the higher slot but the coach is insitsting he stays in a higher slot.
                      This is stupid.


                      Originally posted by son who is sidearm View Post
                      his reason was that side arm pitcher rarely make the bigs or do colleges look at them and if they do they only last for a few years.
                      This is wrong.

                      What about...

                      - Nolan Ryan
                      - Tom Seaver
                      - Randy Johnson
                      - Pedro Martinez

                      Yes, you have to have more movement to be successful when throwing sidearm, but that's not that hard to come by.


                      Originally posted by son who is sidearm View Post
                      i have not done anything as of yet i just told my son to throw from where he is comfortable if the coaches say anything to do what he feels he has too. what he feels is right or or try what the coaches say
                      Can your son make it as a position player?
                      Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                      I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        chris

                        yes my son can play just about every where but the coaches chose to have him as a PO. in L.L. he played ss, 3rd, catcher, and all outfield positions but mostly center when in the outfield.

                        when u say it sounds like early medial epicondylitis what do u mean. my son has never had this pain when he throws from his natural slot. should he stop throwin completely or just go back to his old way.

                        tg coach i dont try and live thru my son or his playin time or act like his player agent but i do and always will look out for my son's health and wellfair for he is my son and always will be. i know that he has to stand up for himself and do things for himself in life but he is 13 years old and is dealin with coaches who in some respect have more knowlegde and understanding of the game then he does at this point and time of his life and he looks to me to help him and what should he do. what i call a fathers love for his son and his son love and respect for his father.

                        this is where i came for advise because i know there are coaches and other ppl on this forum who have even more knowledge and experience than i do. and could help me do the right thing with out upsetting the balance. i probably should not have posted right after ursa posted.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by son who is sidearm View Post
                          chris

                          yes my son can play just about every where but the coaches chose to have him as a PO. in L.L. he played ss, 3rd, catcher, and all outfield positions but mostly center when in the outfield.

                          when u say it sounds like early medial epicondylitis what do u mean. my son has never had this pain when he throws from his natural slot. should he stop throwin completely or just go back to his old way.

                          tg coach i dont try and live thru my son or his playin time or act like his player agent but i do and always will look out for my son's health and wellfair for he is my son and always will be. i know that he has to stand up for himself and do things for himself in life but he is 13 years old and is dealin with coaches who in some respect have more knowlegde and understanding of the game then he does at this point and time of his life and he looks to me to help him and what should he do. what i call a fathers love for his son and his son love and respect for his father.

                          this is where i came for advise because i know there are coaches and other ppl on this forum who have even more knowledge and experience than i do. and could help me do the right thing with out upsetting the balance. i probably should not have posted right after ursa posted.
                          SWIS,

                          When certain people give advice, you really only need to cull the wheat from the chaff. Then you will have your answer. Some can be all chaff if you know what I mean.

                          Regards,
                          S. Tyler

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