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  • #31
    Knock, knock, Chriis?
    Primum non nocere

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fastbal95 View Post
      When he starts his acceleration, his forearm "bounces" which causes the ball to not move forward at all or even move backwards in some cases. This also shortens the length which Maddox has to apply force, ie shortening his driveline.
      There are fundamental flaws with the concept of the driveline.

      Part of the problem is that the real measure of power is the rotation of the hips and shoulders. It's much more important to pay attention to what they are doing.
      Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
        Maddox also tools along at about 90% effort not Maximal.
        It's kind of silly to criticize one of the greatest pitchers of our era.

        I prefer to learn from them.


        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
        Chris, for the record, do you think Marshall has it right or wrong about forearm bounce causing UCL retrograde?
        Wrong.

        I've never seen a significant difference between the bounce of Marshall and traditional pitchers. Their forearms all do basically the same thing.

        The same thing goes for Outman pitchers.
        Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

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        • #34
          You saw that statement as criticism? That explains a few things.

          You dodged the second question but thanx for replying.
          Primum non nocere

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
            You saw that statement as criticism? That explains a few things.
            Marshall is well known for criticizing every successful major league pitcher. I don't think that's a very wise strategy.


            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
            You dodged the second question but thanx for replying.
            How exactly did I dodge the question?
            Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

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            • #36
              Best info by far is Wolforth/pitching central/athletic pitcher.

              learn that and you can tailor to younger ages.

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              • #37
                Chris,

                I do not speak for Dr.Marshall; he can only speak for himself.
                I told you the truth about Maddox and it is one of the main reasons I believe velocity Is not the determining factor in pitching, movement is. I was not criticizing him, if anything I was praising him for having it figured out.

                Dr.Marshall has explained in detail like nobody else before him what causes each throwing related injury. One of the main injuries that he has eliminated through his findings with his mechanic's is UCL retrograde and failure. It is caused by forearm bounce.
                Whether you see it in both mechanics was a dodge to the question.

                Again do you have a different explanation for why this injury occurs or is he in your opinion correct?
                Primum non nocere

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                • #38
                  Oh, what the heck, I'll jump in too... Fastbal and Dirtberry, I think it's fair for commentators here to jump in on you right away, as your theories and attitudes are pretty well known. That doesn't mean that their opinions about you are right, but they certainly aren't premature.

                  For a newcomer to our site reading your comments about throwing, it would be helpful for them to know that (a) you ardently believe that Dr. Marshall is the most brilliant mind in pitching, and (b) 98% of the baseball world doesn't buy what Dr. Marshall is saying. Again, I'm not taking a position here, but someone ought to know. My only "editorial" would be that anyone who fears forearm bounce and uses Greg Maddux as an example of the career-threatening risks of such a motion is clearly residing in alternative universe where Maddux flamed out at age 22 and Jeff Sparks is being grilled by Congress for the secrets to his incredible multi-Cy-Young-Award-winning pitching career.

                  I'm a pretty experienced and knowledgeable youth baseball coach and actually spent an entire morning going through Dr. Marshall's web site with an open mind looking for nuggets of wisdom that I could take back to my team, supplemented with correspondence with Coach45. And, except for the advise that I know that Chirs has adopted in his instruction ("don't point your fingers back toward second base"), I found almost nothing comprehensible and substantiable enough for me to make use of instructionally. So, suggesting that some dad should start his kid with your seven points of instruction using terms that no one else in baseball uses (what's a 'driveline'?) and Marshall's impenetrable web site is pure folly. Maybe you as a Marshall expert can yourself directly teach young kids, but doing it with words on a web page is like describing Beethoven's 9th Symphony to someone deaf since birth.

                  Dirt, I am very curious about what and how you teach mechanics to five and six year olds. Obviously, one of the problems that Marshall has in teaching pitching when players get to him is that they've had a lifetime of conventional throwing instruction. And I'm certainly open to the idea that Marshallian ideas might be a gateway to teaching throwing to youngsters (although I am concerned that the classic Dr. Mike motion has little hip rotation). Any chance of getting a video clip of your most successful youngsters throwing?

                  Notwithstanding the smarminess of my comments above, I am trying my darndest to keep an open mind about Marshall -- heck, anyone willing to poke his finger in the collective eye of the hidebound baseball establishment deserves at least some respect. :bowdown:
                  sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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                  • #39
                    I did not use Maddox as an example of anything although Chris does show he does grab and that is a lead in to forearm bouncing which does degrade his UCL which leads to failure. Thanx for your concern.

                    When you glossed over Marshalls site like an Evilyn Wood graduate did you expect to get anything out of it? that was a fatal flaw in understanding.
                    His terms are pretty much understandable to my 10 year olds, whats your problem? Driveline is probably the most understandable of all his terms.
                    If we are going to discus Marshalls mechanics we should at least know the material?
                    Primum non nocere

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Ursa ...

                      Don't you know anyone who doesn't grasp and embrace Marshall is a Dumb Donkey? I say it's Marshall and his Kool Aid, cult like disciples who are the Dumb Donkeys. They're trying to turn the world upside down. Yet they want to tell everyone who doesn't jump on board right away they have the IQ of a gnat. Great marketing!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        One of the main injuries that he has eliminated through his findings with his mechanic's is UCL retrograde and failure. It is caused by forearm bounce.

                        Again do you have a different explanation for why this injury occurs or is he in your opinion correct?
                        I don't think Marshall has eliminated the phenomenon of bounce.

                        When I look at high speed film of his guys, I don't see anything that's fundamentally different about what their PAS forearms do.

                        They bounce like everyone else.

                        That doesn't mean some of his ideas aren't useful, but I think he's overstating his case in that respect.
                        Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          does have a typo if u know the guy Chris
                          In the 3rd or 4th paragraph after Jeff Suppan picture


                          One thing to keep in mind when stepping toward the target is that it is critical that your hips rotate ahead of your shoulders. If you have a hard time getting anything on your throws, then the problem may be that your shoulders are rotating with -- or worse, ahead of -- your shoulders. The longer your can keep your shoulders closed (with your glove still pointing at the target) while your hips are opening up underneath them, the more power you will be able to get on your throws.
                          Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
                          Here's how I teach people to throw...

                          - Sideways, Swing, Step, And Throw

                          This is consistent with most of the Marshall stuff, but easier to understand.

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                          • #43
                            Chris,

                            Your still playing Dodge ball.
                            Primum non nocere

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                              Chris,

                              Your still playing Dodge ball.
                              Whatever...
                              Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                                When you glossed over Marshalls site like an Evilyn Wood graduate did you expect to get anything out of it? that was a fatal flaw in understanding. His terms are pretty much understandable to my 10 year olds, whats your problem? Driveline is probably the most understandable of all his terms. If we are going to discus Marshalls mechanics we should at least know the material?
                                Dirt, thanks for the reply. Please understand that I was expressly not debating the merits of Marshall's teachings, but rather their accessibility to the original poster. I do not profess to be an expert on baseball technique (and certainly not on pitching technique), but I am an "expert" on what middling-smart dads-turned-youth-baseball coaches can reasonably be expected to learn, understand, and teach.

                                And, there are very few of us dad/coaches/employed people who have the time to put in three hours of reading time plus discussion time (in my case, probably 5 to 8 hours) with other Marshall adherents to decide whether it's worthwhile to make an even further investment of time in his teachings. Heck, most of us don't read instruction manuals before installing software; you think we're going to do a bunch of barely comprehensible, difficult to navigate reading about pitching before trying to learn one man's pitching philosophies?

                                Face it -- Marshall's website is not very receptive to the near-novice coach looking for some quick understanding of pitching ideas. You may think that coaches should be willing to put in more time to learn every possible pitching theory. Guess what -- I think Jessica Alba should swing by in a convertible and take me out for a night of fine food and debauchery. (Well, not tonight -- it's my wife's birthday...) Guess what -- we're both doomed to disappointment.

                                The reality is that -- if someone has to pour through hundreds of pages of youth growth charts to find out how to actually throw a baseball -- they're going to give up. I just went to his web site to look up "driveline" but I couldn't figure out where to find it. I first went to his free "ebook" and discovered no introduction, and that the first three chapters were devoted to Dr. Mike's credentials. Hmm.. no luck there. Let's try the chapter on "Youth Baseball"; that sounds promising. Huh? We get a discussion of a 1955 study of maturation rates which itself relies expressly on a 1900[ study of Biological Maturity Assessment based on .... wait for it .... "Pubic Hair Stages"! :disbelief:

                                Sorry, this is not the way to get a Dad who wants help teaching his kid how to throw a baseball to listen to you. So, maybe you can get your "seven points" a little more grounded and define "driveline" yourself.
                                sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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