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  • #46
    Ursa Major,

    Points well taken.

    I tell my client fathers when they go to Dr.Marshalls site that they need an exit strategy!
    Some of them start reading the Question and answers section and BAM it’s 4: 30 in the morning.
    Primum non nocere

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm curious as to what they say after their marathon readings. Are they willing to put their tykes into your hands based on what they read? Heck, anything that you can get them doing at that age that gets them stepping forward with their glove side foot is a plus.

      And I genuinely am interested in seeing what the throws of such kids look like after being introduced to your methods. I'm sure someone's taken a video of them at some point. So long as their faces are not distinguishable, I can't see that they'd have much objection to you putting a couple of clips up.
      sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
        Ursa Major,

        Points well taken.

        I tell my client fathers when they go to Dr.Marshalls site that they need an exit strategy!
        Some of them start reading the Question and answers section and BAM it’s 4: 30 in the morning.
        i want a Javelin, to take out to the baseball field, just to see the expressions on peoples faces.

        drill
        Yogi Berra was asked by a reporter "How do you catch a knuckle ball?" He came right back and said "When it stops rolling"

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
          Driveline is probably the most understandable of all his terms.
          So, can you describe it in detail for us?

          Comment


          • #50
            DM59,

            Drive- to send, expel, or otherwise cause to move by force or compulsion

            Line- a continuous extent of length, straight or curved, without breadth or thickness; the trace of a moving point.

            Driveline- a continuous extent of length, straight or curved, without breadth or thickness; the trace of a moving point in a continuous extent of length, straight or curved, without breadth or thickness; the trace of a moving point.

            For pitchers this line runs from the dish to second base. Also known in Marshall nomenclature, as the “Acromial line” because he wants you to get your shoulders Acromial tips to line up with the driveline yet goes no further into early over rotation which is the start to centripetal forces that causes forearm fly out that leads to elbow and shoulder deterioration then failure.

            Ursa Major,

            I’m working on it.

            Very young kids who learn the crow-step, crow- trot rhythm through Marshall’s pitching mechanics throw tremendously from the field because it is virtually the same thing. When kids get on the bump for the first time and they have been taught how to walk and throw they are at a mechanically distinct linear advantage and pitch accurately at a much younger age which will help alleviate the young batters high anxiety.
            Primum non nocere

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
              Driveline- a continuous extent of length, straight or curved,...
              Which does Marshall teach? Straight or curved?

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              • #52
                He tries to teach straight but overcoming proprioceptive awareness is a tough challenge with older players but can be improved.

                Deemax possed this most brilliant question over at RPM about if it is posible to overcome what you have already proprioceptively achieved.
                Primum non nocere

                Comment


                • #53
                  So why have we all been spending so much energy arguing about guys like Jeff Sparks and the others in the videos on Marshall's site, when none of them actually use one of the most fundamental of Marshall's teachings? What I see is a huge arcing motion very similar to all of the traditional pitchers out there. Identical actually. Just with severely tilted shoulders.

                  How can Sparks be the poster boy for Marshall mechanics? Why does doc post video of guys with traditional arm action with this big arcing motion and claim that they represent his teachings? I don't get it. How can any of these guys be used as verification of MM mechanics and their effectiveness or superiority when they don't actually use them?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    You must understand that even Dr.Marshall along with everybody else who coaches players who are changing their built up mechanics that it is difficult. Marshall has never made any of the claims that you just made. Any arguing done on Jeff Sparks behalf comes from defending false statements made in advance of them. It makes it even tougher when a pitcher comes in with what he has and then has to change things to please new coaches at every level. Then have to battle to throw the pitches you want to throw not what the catcher wants. Everybody forgets that he had to climb his way through the minor leagues with an acquiescing form of Marshall mechanics. All the videos that you see for free at Marshall’s site are in training Video’s that Marshall uses to diagnose mechanical problems.

                    Not even close actually- the fact that you and many others do not see it just means you have not studied it.

                    “effectiveness or superiority”- watch Sparks strike out some of the best MLB players
                    and make that statement, he was using them.
                    Primum non nocere

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by dm59 View Post
                      So why have we all been spending so much energy arguing about guys like Jeff Sparks and the others in the videos on Marshall's site....
                      Because the manner in which we teach throwing has to change and discussing these guys urge us down the road of change.
                      "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                      - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        You must understand that even Dr.Marshall along with everybody else who coaches players who are changing their built up mechanics that it is difficult.
                        Understood.

                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        Marshall has never made any of the claims that you just made.
                        Some of his followers have been claiming superiority quite vehemently on this, and other, boards.

                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        Not even close actually- the fact that you and many others do not see it just means you have not studied it.
                        You'd be surprised at how much I've studied it. I will agree that I have not studied it like you have. I have read and re-read (over and over and over again) what he's written. I've done the same with those videos and have had many, many discussions with people who claim to know the method. What I am saying that I don't "see" is the most fundamental of his teachings, that being the straight line "driveline". I thought that maybe I just didn't understand his intent because not one of the pitchers I've ever seen on video, supposedly using his motion, exhibit the straight line driveline. I see a huge arcing motion. So, I thought maybe his "driveline" was to be more of a "plane" (parallel to the sagittal plane) rather than a "line". That's why I asked about the definition.

                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        ...“effectiveness or superiority”- watch Sparks strike out some of the best MLB players and make that statement, he was using them.
                        Not the driveline.

                        I question the logic of the claims of superiority of his method when this fundamental component is missing.

                        In your throwing recommendations to TL003, you stated:
                        Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                        ...on straight line with no acceleration disturbances (loops or path arcs) ...
                        He may go out and attempt to do this but we have no examples of people actually achieving it and then, by extension, nobody who's had any success with mechanics that include this fundamental component.

                        Jake, you stated:
                        Originally posted by Jake Patterson
                        Because the manner in which we teach throwing has to change and discussing these guys urge us down the road of change.
                        Agreed. Discussion of alternate methods is exactly what should be happening here. That means that a "theory", like Marshall's, needs to be put out and it then needs to be tested by those not in that camp. I have, for several years, read about this "driveline" but have not seen anyone actually doing it. I thought I must have misunderstood it but apparently I did not. So, now show us someone using it. The closest I've seen is the motion they use with the wrist weights exercise.

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                        • #57
                          dm59,

                          All your points are correct and true. The fact that they have trouble attaining a straight up and down orientation does not take away the fact that they have improved and eliminated the main injury causing bad mechanics, being late forearm turn over (UCL), over early rotation (Shoulder and elbow deterioration) and releases (loss of flexion and extension range of motion) these are major accomplishments and should not be seen as not getting close to Marshalls theoretical mechanics. The fact that you did notice this flaw does show you know more than most but understand that what you said was probably also said by Marshall himself to all the trainees.
                          Primum non nocere

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                            dm59,

                            All your points are correct and true. The fact that they have trouble attaining a straight up and down orientation does not take away the fact that they have improved and eliminated the main injury causing bad mechanics, being late forearm turn over (UCL), over early rotation (Shoulder and elbow deterioration) and releases (loss of flexion and extension range of motion) these are major accomplishments and should not be seen as not getting close to Marshalls theoretical mechanics. The fact that you did notice this flaw does show you know more than most but understand that what you said was probably also said by Marshall himself to all the trainees.
                            Dirt,

                            As said elsewhere, I think Marshall was the first out-of-the-box thinker to accurately asses and describe some of the mechanical causes of injuries. And I don't believe anyone else was really looking.

                            Your last statement is the one I find problematic and it's problematic because his proposed solutions have created another set of problems. From our findings (an admittedly small sample size) the body action and glove-side techniques cause the throwing shoulder to lag even farther behind than with conventional mechanics. The guys he trains, even those most particularly adept athletes, make tremendous strength gains. Without those strength gains I suspect every one of them would have been injured.

                            There are also serious inefficiencies in the driveline. In reality it's very short, not having the length Marshall describes, because the ball actually comes almost to a complete pause before final acceleration starts, and even then the ball is not driving straight toward the plate it's being driven upward very fast (we've measured this component at almost 50 MPH). That's a bunch of wasted force, as is the disconnect of pelvis/torso rotation from the shoulder & arm. I'll see if I can put together an animated GIF that shows this...I'm still figuring out software issues.

                            In the interim, here's a still that shows the specific evidence of shoulder lag. You can study Marshall's other students and see that they are all essentially the same. This problem is induced by his body action and glove side technique as taught. The fixes for this are proprietary , though we hope to share them with everyone in baseball.

                            ShoulderLag.jpg
                            www.rpmpitching.com

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Coach45 View Post
                              Dirt,


                              In the interim, here's a still that shows the specific evidence of shoulder lag. You can study Marshall's other students and see that they are all essentially the same. This problem is induced by his body action and glove side technique as taught. The fixes for this are proprietary , though we hope to share them with everyone in baseball.

                              [ATTACH]37715[/ATTACH]
                              What is the benefit of showing a still of a guy who is NOT doing what Dr. Marshall told him to do? I'm not sure that the inability to master a technique is an indictment of the technique. Probably more an indictment of the student's ability to implement. Do ALL of the pitchers who train with Dr. Marshall have this flaw? Is it a function of the years of improper training?

                              Sam does not have these difficulties, nor has he had a single injury. He is having success with his "pure" Marshall mechanics, his pitching coach is thrilled, and he has Sam demonstrate for visiting coaches.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Here's proof of what we've changed. I'm unwilling to post the entire high speed clip here because it gives away much of the research and study we've worked on. Shot about two weeks ago, note that the arm is up in the driveline and the shoulder does not lag. This is possible because the shoulder and torso has not flown open early and glove arm technique is very different. This image and the one above are taken from almost identical times in the sequencing after foot strike. It's not about ability it's about technique.

                                As for the suggestion that he is no longer training?

                                ShoulderNotLaggine.jpg
                                www.rpmpitching.com

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