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Marshall's Straight Driveline??

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  • Marshall's Straight Driveline??

    As I read Marshall's "book", the concept of the straight driveline seems like a fundamental. Posts by those knowledgeable about MM teachings also refer to it. Dirtberry's list of mechanical components talks about having "...no acceleration disturbances (loops or path arcs)..." Now, given the fact that none of the pitchers/students in his published videos (including Jeff Sparks, by the way) employ this straight driveline, quite the opposite, my questions become:

    1. How important is achieving a straight driveline to Marshall's theories?

    2. In the absence of the straight driveline, and therefore the existence of the large "acceleration disturbances" (looping paths), in the MM examples we've seen, what elements do they actually employ that are representative of Marshall's teaching? Pendulum swing, pronation, etc.

    3. Which of the MM elements actually employed result in velocity?

    4. Which of the MM elements actually employed result in reduced stress on the elbow and shoulder?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dm59 View Post
    1. How important is achieving a straight driveline to Marshall's theories?
    I don't think a perfectly straight driveline is possible or even desirable.

    I could see how a more vertical arm slot could reduce some of the stresses on the arm. However, a vertical arm slot is still going to be quite curved when viewed from the side.


    Originally posted by dm59 View Post
    2. In the absence of the straight driveline, and therefore the existence of the large "acceleration disturbances" (looping paths), in the MM examples we've seen, what elements do they actually employ that are representative of Marshall's teaching? Pendulum swing, pronation, etc.
    Correct


    Originally posted by dm59 View Post
    4. Which of the MM elements actually employed result in reduced stress on the elbow and shoulder?
    Not keeping the fingers on top of the ball during the arm swing, getting the PAS arm up before the GS foot lands, and pronation.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      I don't think a perfectly straight driveline is possible or even desirable.
      Anything from the Marshall guys?

      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      I could see how a more vertical arm slot could reduce some of the stresses on the arm.
      How so?

      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      Not keeping the fingers on top of the ball during the arm swing,...
      How does this fit? Velo or safety and what is the rationale behind it?

      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      ...getting the PAS arm up before the GS foot lands,...
      Same question, what role does this play?


      Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
      ...and pronation.
      Same question.

      It's the mechanism of effect that I'm looking for elaboration on. Dirtberry? fb95? Others?

      Comment


      • #4
        Anyone else?

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Theoretically, if the hand is closer to the axis of rotation (the shoulders) the hand will be moving relatively slower and the force on the elbow and shoulder will be reduced. However, you could argue that the fact that many side armers (e.g. Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan) haven't had arm problems suggests that this may not be as big a deal as Marshall says it is. That is why I am not convinced that throwing from a sidearm arm slot is necessarily bad.

          2. By trying to keep the fingers on top of the ball, you delay when the PAS arm externally rotates. This can lead to timing problems which increase the load on the elbow and shoulder.

          3. If you get the PAS arm up before the GS foot lands, and before the shoulders start to rotate, you ensure that the PAS upper arm only externally rotates 90 degrees. If the PAS arm is not vertical at the moment the the shoulders start rotating, you will increase the distance and force with which the PAS upper arm externally rotates.

          Here's a clip of BJ Ryan, who has the worst timing I'm ever seen. Notice how his PAS upper arm is vertically downward when his shoulders start rotating.



          4. In pitchers who are older than 16 or so, and whose growth plates have closed, pronation reduces the load on the UCL by allowing the Pronator Teres muscle to take up some of the load (since the Pronator Teres and the UCL run pretty much parallel to each other).
          Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

          I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

          Comment


          • #6
            Dm59,

            “Straight driveline” is what I consider Marshall’s first principle because it keeps your shoulders from acting on your arm to develope centrifugal forces. Centripetal (towards the center) forces are what is desirable. With your bottom half you should stay on the driveline so that you direct your force and mass towards the plate by stepping your glove arm foot on the glove arm side of the driveline and your ball arm foot finishes on the ball arm side of the driveline. Your top half if rotated past the driveline starts this centrifuging which causes early elbow lag that causes front of shoulder injuries and then “forearm flyout” that causes hyper extension that gives you loss of extension and flexion range of motion plus inflammation. In children this constant slamming of the elbow chews up the hyaline cartilage, which later hardens into what’s known as bone spurs and chips. The fact that you see all of Marshall’s students struggling to achieve this does not mean they are not trying, remember they have all been traditionally trained first (proprioceptive awareness) but they all get closer than any traditional pitcher.

            High velocity is enhanced very little by mechanics and is generated by the higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber compared to slow twitch muscle fiber. It is purely Genetic. According to Marshall’s Guru Sir Issac Newton the straighter the driveline the more acceleration. I believe that his training with wrist weights and Iron balls helps in velocity but Marshall will not make this claim. Straighter absolutely gives you better command and control.

            Forearm bounce caused by late forearm turnover is what causes Ulnar collateral ligament over stress (micro tearing) and UCL complete failure and has little to do with pronation.
            I have HS pitchers (more towards traditional) who pronate all their pitches but are late with their pendulum swing and bringing the ball up with their hand on top of the ball who still suffer UCL discomfort and damage. None of my pitchers who perform the correct pendulum swing by getting their elbow up to driveline height by lifting the ball thumb up (supinating) give me any discomfort reports.
            Primum non nocere

            Comment


            • #7
              Dirtberry, Did you know that when your hand goes away from the core of your body as your shoulders turn the hand actually accelerates? I will use batting as an example. When you swing a bat your hands travel a short distance. The bat barrel covers much more area in the same amount of time, hence it is traveling faster then your hands which are kept closer to the body until released for connection. Every time you guys include Newton as the reason for your superior velocity and mechanics, he turns over in his grave.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                “Straight driveline” is what I consider Marshall’s first principle...
                That's always been my understanding.

                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                ... but they all get closer than any traditional pitcher.
                I don't see this in the videos. From the side, they have a huge arcing path, coming over the top due to the very significant shoulder tilt. This arc is every bit as much as in any traditional pitcher. It's virtually identical, just tilted.

                Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                I have HS pitchers (more towards traditional) who pronate all their pitches but are late with their pendulum swing and bringing the ball up with their hand on top of the ball who still suffer UCL discomfort and damage. None of my pitchers who perform the correct pendulum swing by getting their elbow up to driveline height by lifting the ball thumb up (supinating) give me any discomfort reports.
                Interesting point. Can you elaborate a bit on why this might be?

                Originally posted by Chris
                ... pronation reduces the load on the UCL by allowing the Pronator Teres muscle to take up some of the load (since the Pronator Teres and the UCL run pretty much parallel to each other).
                Nice description, Chris. This makes sense.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Love,

                  I know exactly what you mean when the hand starts accelerating away from your core.
                  Unfortunately Newton would have pointed out that the acceleration is directed towards 3 rd base which dictates that you must use musculature to redirect the ball to accelerate back towards the dish.

                  Non-pertaining examples are Evelyn Wooded by me.

                  He has to while doing a Jig.
                  Primum non nocere

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dirtberry View Post
                    Love,

                    I know exactly what you mean when the hand starts accelerating away from your core.
                    Unfortunately Newton would have pointed out that the acceleration is directed towards 3 rd base which dictates that you must use musculature to redirect the ball to accelerate back towards the dish.

                    Non-pertaining examples are Evelyn Wooded by me.

                    He has to while doing a Jig.
                    Your guys' acceleration is towards the sun, moon and the stars, which means you are also fighting gravity.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Forgive me if I have this all wrong but, given that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, doesn't an arc give a greater distance over which to apply force?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If your hand is traveling in an arc, are you applying force in the direction of your target?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Most of the time, no, but acceleration may just continue over that longer path, eventually being applied toward the target. In track, the hammer throw uses rotation to allow a longer path for acceleration to happen, or force to be applied. Wouldn't a straight line actually shorten the path along which force can be applied?
                          Last edited by dm59; 03-21-2008, 06:40 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hammer throwers use rotation to create centrifugal force that causes the hammer to fly away from their body. They are not applying force in the (eventual) direction that the hammer travels. They are applying centripetal force (string tension) to keep the hammer from flying away from the body. Upon release they actually apply force in the opposite direction the hammer travels. They don't simply let go. This would be similar to the "crack of the whip" theory.
                            Last edited by XV84; 03-21-2008, 07:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My question was about the validity of the application of force over a longer distance because of the circular motion, as opposed to a straight line. What am I missing in that? Really. That's not intended to be flippant. It's just an honest question.

                              Comment

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