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  • Flat Hands

    New topic;

    I have heard a few people mention that the hands flatten before the swing is launched. Is there any time for this to happen? My definition of flat hands is palm up palm down. Thoughts?
    "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
    "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

  • #2
    Originally posted by Stealth View Post
    I have heard a few people mention that the hands flatten before the swing is launched. Is there any time for this to happen? My definition of flat hands is palm up palm down. Thoughts?
    I think palm up/palm down does happen.

    My concern with the cue of "flat hands" is that it could be misinterpreted as advocating a level swing (rather than tilting over the plate).

    I would use "palm up/palm down" as the cue.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 03-24-2008, 08:54 AM.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Stealth View Post
      New topic;

      I have heard a few people mention that the hands flatten before the swing is launched. Is there any time for this to happen? My definition of flat hands is palm up palm down. Thoughts?
      Palm up/Palm down as a reference to what? Level with the ground?

      My definition of "flat" is flat to the plane of the swing. IMO, any other "definition" of flat hands says: "get palm up/palm down and swing level".......

      The literal palm up/palm down position is probably best seen in the last 2-3 frames at 30fps, when the rear hand is opening, allowing lag. This is usually as the top hand releases from the shoulder.

      I've posted countless clips here showing how the lead hand flattens to the tilted plane set by the shoulders BEFORE launch. This swing almost NEVER FIRES until this action takes place. But the hands aren't palm up/palm down literally at this point.

      BOND IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE.........

      the lead hand flattens to the plane via slotting. GO. The lead elbow raises slightly via the humerus to assist in moving to plane after slotting starts, not during, and then follows the tilted shoulder plane, RAISING IT UP.

      So is Cabrera:



      By the way, this certainly isn't happening in these clips to flatten the lead hand to plane now is it........

      Last edited by BoardMember; 03-24-2008, 09:33 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Stealth View Post
        New topic;

        I have heard a few people mention that the hands flatten before the swing is launched. Is there any time for this to happen? My definition of flat hands is palm up palm down. Thoughts?
        The bottom hand palm begins to flatten before launch as the back elbow drops and the lead elbow rises. As the bat flattens (behind him) the top palm is facing the pitcher, and as the elbow drops the bottom palm turns down. The hands don't get to fully palm up, palm down until after launch.

        Below, the top palm is facing the pitcher, and the bottom palm is facing toward the ground due to him lifting the lead arm as the rear elbow drops.



        Below, he is farther along and the lead arm is directing the knob toward the ball, and the bathead has arced toward the ball, and thus the top palm has rotated to palm up. Now, you have the palm up, palm down postion, and he got there without any pronation of the lead forearm, or early supination of the top forearm.

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        • #5
          I've posted countless clips here showing how the lead hand flattens to the tilted plane set by the shoulders BEFORE launch. This swing almost NEVER FIRES until this action takes place. But the hands aren't palm up/palm down literally at this point.
          BM - can you post one of the clips you mention above here? Can you also point out the frame that you reference above (first sentence in above quote) as to when the lead hand is flattened just before launch? Do you think this is a conscious decision by the hitter to get to this point before he decides to swing?

          My definition is not one of swinging level but of getting the hands on plane with the pitch early in the process.

          Since you have done this before (posting this type of clip) hopefully you have one readily available. Thanks.
          "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
          "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

          Comment


          • #6
            The bottom hand palm begins to flatten before launch as the back elbow drops and the lead elbow rises. As the bat flattens (behind him) the top palm is facing the pitcher, and as the elbow drops the bottom palm turns down. The hands don't get to fully palm up, palm down until after launch.
            How much has it flattened? I have a hard time with the above - in bold. Maybe when BM posts a clip we can reference a particular frame that will aid and help in the discussion. In the first clip of Bonds above he clearly has already launched the swing. Lets wait until we get the clip from BM and agree on a few things before making any decisions.
            "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
            "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Stealth View Post
              BM - can you post one of the clips you mention above here? Can you also point out the frame that you reference above (first sentence in above quote) as to when the lead hand is flattened just before launch? Do you think this is a conscious decision by the hitter to get to this point before he decides to swing?

              My definition is not one of swinging level but of getting the hands on plane with the pitch early in the process.

              Since you have done this before (posting this type of clip) hopefully you have one readily available. Thanks.
              I think it might help you if you understand that they (MLB hitters) try to keep the top palm facing the pitcher as they drop the back elbow. And, the back elbow drops in from slightly behind them, in a direction slightly toward the plate. This rear elbow movement (some call it slotting), pushes the bottom hand out and up, which turns the bottom palm down, while the top palm is facing the pitcher. The top palm doesn't twist upward until later.

              See if you can see it here. The knob moves toward the plate, away from the yellow line as his rear elbow drops. Note how long you can see the back of his top hand. His top palm faces the pitcher for quite awhile. You can see the logo on his glove all the while that his back elbow is dropping. He is not turning the palm up, early. The intersection of the pink and yellow lines is where the bat is swiveling. It isn't swiveling from a point between the hands.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Stealth View Post
                How much has it flattened? I have a hard time with the above - in bold. Maybe when BM posts a clip we can reference a particular frame that will aid and help in the discussion. In the first clip of Bonds above he clearly has already launched the swing. Lets wait until we get the clip from BM and agree on a few things before making any decisions.
                Forget about "launch" just watch how the move is made. I demonstrated it in the video. Watch it again if you wish. My words aren't getting through to you.

                It is a movement of the upper arms that is the key that you don't yet seem to grasp. The move isn't done with the forearms and wrists. It is done with the upper arms in synch with torso rotation.

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                • #9
                  Jim - quit telling me I don't get it. Maybe it's you that don't get it!

                  I think it might help you if you understand that they (MLB hitters) try to keep the top palm facing the pitcher as they drop the back elbow.
                  And when this is happening the bottom hand is going forward. This is the torque (my definition at least) I have spoken about that you seem to not understand. The top hand is "holding" while the bottom hand starts to go forward - otherwise as HG has said recently you would lose the barrel.

                  It is a movement of the upper arms that is the key that you don't yet seem to grasp. The move isn't done with the forearms and wrists. It is done with the upper arms in synch with torso rotation.
                  Why do you keep bringing this up? I started a new thread so we could move on.......:noidea

                  Back to my original question: do the hands flatten before launch? I would like to see BM's clip so that we can distinguish at what point the hitters mind said "go" so we can continue on my original post. I don't think they do, thus the reason for my post.
                  "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
                  "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stealth View Post
                    Jim - quit telling me I don't get it. Maybe it's you that don't get it!
                    I think it's pretty obvious that it's you, based upon the statement below.

                    And when this is happening the bottom hand is going forward. This is the torque (my definition at least) I have spoken about that you seem to not understand. The top hand is "holding" while the bottom hand starts to go forward - otherwise as HG has said recently you would lose the barrel.
                    I'll stay out of this thread. You've got a real case of "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jim - what don't you like about this statement of mine?

                      And when this is happening the bottom hand is going forward. This is the torque (my definition at least) I have spoken about that you seem to not understand. The top hand is "holding" while the bottom hand starts to go forward - otherwise as HG has said recently you would lose the barrel.
                      Here is your quote;

                      I think it might help you if you understand that they (MLB hitters) try to keep the top palm facing the pitcher as they drop the back elbow.
                      What is the bottom hand doing while they keep the top palm facing the pitcher when the rear elbow moves/slots?
                      "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
                      "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stealth View Post
                        What is the bottom hand doing while they keep the top palm facing the pitcher when the rear elbow moves/slots?
                        I said I'm staying out of your thread. And, if you don't get the part that I've already described, you probably won't get the answer to the above question. Your mind is made up, no point trying to explain anything else. You can't seem to let go of your conception of what happens, long enough to grasp what I'm saying.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                          I said I'm staying out of your thread. And, if you don't get the part that I've already described, you probably won't get the answer to the above question. Your mind is made up, no point trying to explain anything else. You can't seem to let go of your conception of what happens, long enough to grasp what I'm saying.
                          Jim - come on, are you serious? You can't or won't answer my question because why? Is it you don't have an answer?


                          You have not described/explained how it's possible to start flattening your hands and THEN swing. The one explanation possible is that your idea of the "go" move is after I do. Hopefully BM will post a clip with frames numbered.
                          "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
                          "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stealth View Post
                            Jim - come on, are you serious? You can't or won't answer my question because why? Is it you don't have an answer?
                            Believe me I have an answer, but I don't feel like wasting my time on it with you anymore.


                            You have not described/explained how it's possible to start flattening your hands and THEN swing. The one explanation possible is that your idea of the "go" move is after I do. Hopefully BM will post a clip with frames numbered.
                            I explained the whole process to the best of my ability in the 10 minute and 2 minute videos, and in posts prior to, and subsequent to the videos. If you still don't agree, or you don't understand what I said, then there's nothing more I can say.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stealth View Post
                              Back to my original question: do the hands flatten before launch? I would like to see BM's clip so that we can distinguish at what point the hitters mind said "go" so we can continue on my original post.
                              Stealth, all of these clips show you exactly what I'm describing from 3 angles. In essence, NO, both hands do not flatten before launch in MY "go". Only the lead hand flattens to the plane before "go". The top hand palm is facing the pitcher, turns sightly toward the third baseman with shoulder rotation, releases toward contact as it begins to turn palm up into contact.







                              If they don't, you'll have to decribe better what your looking for.........
                              Last edited by BoardMember; 03-24-2008, 12:57 PM.

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