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  • #16
    Originally posted by BoardMember View Post
    Or just wear a glove that has a logo on it that travels half way up your forearm.........
    Both would be good so we can put this behind us!
    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

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    • #17
      Jake,

      I'll make this easy, speaking for myself, I will not post anything further on swing disagreements. It is time to move on.

      Mike

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      • #18
        Thought.

        Take a look at Jim's back elbow as he adducts it while in connection. Take a look at the following after the slotting and then notice the back elbow. Then, look at blur. The displacement, and then the blur?????????



        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
          Jake,

          I'll make this easy, speaking for myself, I will not post anything further on swing disagreements. It is time to move on.

          Mike
          Mike, you can choose to do what you like. The problem is this is the same argument that has been going on for more than a year. And the discussion always digresses into something I have to spend many hours moderating. It is usually prompted by those behind the scenes who feel the need to prove their superiority like they're some part of a Lord of the Flies experiment - which brings little value to the discussion for those trying to learn/teach. If you truly believe in bat-blur/torque or whatever happens to be the term du jour so be it! Why wouldn't you want to discuss this with like minds??? At some point the learning process stops and and we have to agree to disagree. This is why I never get into discussions, especially at a bar, with other veterans about which branch of the service is better. We all joined for similar reasons, just did it differently.
          Last edited by Jake Patterson; 03-26-2008, 06:02 PM.
          "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
          - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

          Comment


          • #20
            Jake,

            I do like discussing the swing with like minds, but also with people who disagree. Do you want a site where everyone agrees? For me at least, discussing the swing with people who disagree helps me to learn more. Either I end up modifying my beliefs or bolstering my beliefs. So far, my swing beliefs have held up to disagreement.

            My problem with discussion with people of an opposite viewpoint is how quickly some of them become nasty. It never fails to amaze me. People get defensive, name call, insult, etc. It's crazy. Richard's name always comes up when you talk about this stuff and I disagree with his behavior, but not with the validity of his hitting content. He's closer than many on this board are, IMO, to the truth about the MLB swing.

            If you are implying I should go back to HI, well, that would be a shame if so. If you go back and check though, I'm usually not the one getting nasty, but others do and being weak, I respond.

            Mike

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
              Jim,

              I like the way you keep your front shoulder in there as you come out of running start. I see nice BHUT, tip and rip, and you turn the bat head with your hands and arms. Is it torque? Is it some manipulation of the bat handle with the hands and arms? Hmmm. Now don't go gettin' all uptight on me, Jim. Let's have a civil discussion without any name calling from you, eh? Don't be sore because you did not disprove my point about active hands in turning the bat head. Nice try though.

              Mike
              I'll be civil, but you're hopeless. There was NO, NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, use of the hands to make the bathead move early. I yanked like heck with muscles that move the upper arms, pulling with both arms, and simply directing the knob in the direction that I wanted the ball to go. For years I have tried to swing and not even feel the bathead. I don't want to feel it at all, and in this swing I didn't. My lower half and my rythm were not what I would like, but I turned the bat just the way I wanted. Only I can feel what I did, and you can only take my word for it. But, I barely hold onto the bat with my hands during load and start of hip turn, for the express purpose of not moving the bathead with my hands early, it's my way of avoiding casting or early movement of the bathead. I don't know what to tell you. I've explained how the bathead starts and you don't believe it. I don't know what to do. I guess you'll just keep on believing what you wish.

              All, I know is that I got blur, and I didn't do a dang thing with my hands to move that bathead. It was all arms in conjunction with torso rotation. Arms pulling the knob and changing the hand angle by changing the upper arm angles, not by swiveling or torqing or using the wrist muscles or twisting the forearms. I just pulled the handle in synch with the turn of the torso.

              The video quality deteriorated upon conversion in the demo with the swing holding the bolt through the bat, but even that swing got blur. Why is it so hard for you to grasp the physics of this? It's the quick break of inertia and change of direction that cause the blur, not a force from the hands.

              I've showed it with a PVC box, with a bolt through the bat, and now on a live swing, and you keep denying it. The bathead will move just fine without early force at the hinge position.

              And, as for you analysis of the swing. I don't see any tip and rip, (by my definition of it), and to answer the last part, NO, there is no torque when the bathead turns from arm position change. It's the bathead breaking its inertia to follow the knob. Just like it did in the turn of the PVC box.
              Last edited by jbooth; 03-26-2008, 07:14 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Jake Patterson View Post
                Jim - Do the same thing with a piece of white tape up the length of the bat.

                Once we get this solved then we can move the discussion to the application of the front-foot big toe pressure.
                I'm not spending any more of my time creating demos. I'm perfectly satisfied that I know how it works, and it's not my life's goal to convince the few remaining disbelievers. They can continue to think what they want.

                Plus, it's irritating that they just say I'm wrong without any formal demo or reasonable explanation on their part, to disprove what I showed.

                Yeah, you can torque it if you wish, and you will also get blur. So what? I don't believe that's what any good hitter does.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Slapper23 View Post
                  Richard's name always comes up when you talk about this stuff and I disagree with his behavior, but not with the validity of his hitting content. He's closer than many on this board are, IMO, to the truth about the MLB swing.
                  The key phrase here is; "IMO".

                  That's what irritates me. You just refute stuff with opinion. When you can disprove someone by presenting facts that disprove them, then your comments are worthwhile. Stating that in your OPINION it doesn't work like that, is BS response. I've described bone movement, the muscles that move them and the physics involved and support my view with substantial evidence to prove my point, and all you can respond with is something like, "well I still don't agree, in MY opinion it's not like that." Well, opinions are a dime a dozen and often worthless.

                  Use some facts to refute what I believe to be facts. I don't say to you, "in my opinion Mike, you're wrong." I present evidence of why I disagree. That's not giving a counter opinion, it's presenting evidence that refutes your opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jbooth View Post
                    I'm not spending any more of my time creating demos. I'm perfectly satisfied that I know how it works, and it's not my life's goal to convince the few remaining disbelievers. They can continue to think what they want.

                    Plus, it's irritating that they just say I'm wrong without any formal demo or reasonable explanation on their part, to disprove what I showed.

                    Yeah, you can torque it if you wish, and you will also get blur. So what? I don't believe that's what any good hitter does.

                    Fair enough!
                    "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                    - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CoachB25 View Post
                      Thought.

                      Take a look at Jim's back elbow as he adducts it while in connection. Take a look at the following after the slotting and then notice the back elbow. Then, look at blur. The displacement, and then the blur?????????



                      I may not be understanding you correctly. But, here's what I think.

                      The pros get their back elbow down, without making the bathead move very much. That's why I say they don't apply early torque. The elbow gets down and then the bathead moves.

                      I have been trying very hard to accomplish that, and as you can see in the comparison of me and the pro, my bathead moves sooner in relation to back elbow movement than his does. If you apply torque with the top hand, that bathead is going to move early, and it simply does NOT in MLB swings.

                      You can look at many MLB swings and see the elbow moving down while very little movement is occuring with the bathead. The ONLY way to accomplish that, is to NOT get the hands involved early in moving the bathead. How can the elbow move that far, while the bathead remains relatively in its original position, if you're torqing and/or swiveling the hands early?

                      Look at these;







                      Howard's back elbow moves a HUGE amount before the bathead moves. And the hand angle doesn't change until after his elbow is almost completely down. His hands are NOT swiveling while his elbow drops.

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                      • #26
                        Jim, yes, what I wrote might be very clumsy. I think the key is "adduction" of the elbow. At the same time, am I wrong in stating that the front shoulder begins rotation? I believe that is what I see. Given these two forces move together then blur.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Jim-

                          Once again you are confusing displacement vs inertia as discussed here;

                          http://www.batspeed.com/research09.html

                          or as seen in the Nyman model in post #7

                          http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9013

                          Note in the NYman model on the right where the hinge angle between the flywheel and "bat" is fixed at 90 degrees, there is a torque of over 60 ft-lbs when the flywheel starts turning.

                          The running start applied via hands as torque is necessary to prevent drag.

                          This does not mean the hands or wrist MUSCLES are generating the forces, as Mankin points out, the push pull comes from larger muscles:

                          http://www.batspeed.com/research08.html

                          "Wrist action or torque"

                          NOTE: Mechanics that would have both hands being thrust forward (both applying forces in relatively the same direction) produces much less torque. --- This type of mechanics just can not generate enough bat speed and power to produce a great hitter.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tom.guerry View Post
                            Jim-

                            Once again you are confusing displacement vs inertia as discussed here;

                            http://www.batspeed.com/research09.html

                            or as seen in the Nyman model in post #7

                            http://www.setpro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9013

                            Note in the NYman model on the right where the hinge angle between the flywheel and "bat" is fixed at 90 degrees, there is a torque of over 60 ft-lbs when the flywheel starts turning.

                            The running start applied via hands as torque is necessary to prevent drag.

                            This does not mean the hands or wrist MUSCLES are generating the forces, as Mankin points out, the push pull comes from larger muscles:

                            http://www.batspeed.com/research08.html

                            "Wrist action or torque"

                            NOTE: Mechanics that would have both hands being thrust forward (both applying forces in relatively the same direction) produces much less torque. --- This type of mechanics just can not generate enough bat speed and power to produce a great hitter.
                            I'm not confused. But, I still think you are. Mankin is in error, and Nyman's work is accurate physics, but I don't think you get his point, or how it applies to the human's action in the swing.

                            I'm really tired of discussing this. Sorry, but I'm not going to continue with it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              But, I barely hold onto the bat with my hands during load and start of hip turn, for the express purpose of not moving the bathead with my hands early, it's my way of avoiding casting or early movement of the bathead.
                              Is there anyone here who thinks this is correct? This makes no sense to me. Dead hands Jim, just plain wrong.

                              I just watched a high school game yesterday where the hitting coach (ex MLB player) must have said "trust your hands" 20 times. How is that possible if you are barely holding onto the bat? The top hand controls the barrel Jim - you better hold onto it if you want to have the correct path to the ball.

                              The one thing I will give you 100% credit for is the intent of your swing. So many youth hitters do not swing hard. You clearly are trying to hit the crap out of the ball.
                              "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
                              "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It looks like your timing is off and you are going into lead arm extension to soon by taking your hands back to far.

                                Of course I really can't tell the picture is blurry


                                drill
                                Yogi Berra was asked by a reporter "How do you catch a knuckle ball?" He came right back and said "When it stops rolling"

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