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  • #16
    Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
    +thepopulationofchina

    Originally posted by jbooth View Post
    What part is confusing?
    How you say one thing in the post dannyboy quotes, yet you're saying the exact opposite now.

    In the post dannyboy quotes you say:

    The pros get their back elbow down, without making the bathead move very much.
    The elbow gets down and then the bathead moves.
    How can the elbow move that far, while the bathead remains relatively in its original position
    In this thread you say:

    2. When the elbow or knob moves toward the body/plate, the bathead drops away from the body/plate.
    Which is it?

    Comment


    • #17
      I recently read the original publication of The Science of Hitting from the 1970s. . I saw original publication because I don't know if later publications changed at all.

      I read it AFTER I learned about Mike Epsteins Roational Hitting. Now Mike says he takes alot of what he knows from Ted Williams' teachings. What I found in The Science of Hitting is a bit different than what Mike teaches (at least it seems that way to me. Ted expresses that regardless of what you learn you should do what is comfortable. But alot of the details push towards how he did things and how he was so successful. What he did in his days is not the same as how the batters of today bat (in my opion). He talks about the knuckles being aligned a certain way, taking a big stride, and bending at the knees on low pitches. As far as I know Mike Epstein and Rotation Hitting teaches you not to bend your front knee but to lean into a low pitch.

      I could be wrong about all of this, Im no expert. But I saw alot of descrepancies when reading Ted's book, in relation to Mike Epstein's teachings.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jbooth View Post
        Yes, today's thinking is shorter stride, but the upper body works the same today as then. Notice how Ted Williams, Billy Williams and Frank Robinson have similar styles of holding the bat vertical, and then dropping it (set it on plane) as they stride. That ensures that the hips go before the hands or bathead.

        Watch again and notice how Bench accomplishes the same thing by raising the elbow as he strides, and note how he bends his top hand back as he drops his elbow.

        You can't see it or know for sure, but I believe that they pull with their arms also, but the hips and shoulders are doing so much of the work, the hands can't catch up and pass the shoulders until late. That's why the concept of starting the hands early, and/or "bypassing the shoulders" is nonsense. The hands are definitely NOT getting a head start on the shoulders, or bypassing them.

        You think those swings had long strides, check out "the Mick". His toe starts behind the back point of the plate and his heel ends up in front of the plate. About a 24 inch stride.



        The video has one shot of Willie Mays with his back foot almost on the back line, and his front foot about 4 inches from the front line of the box. His feet are about 5 and a half feet apart.

        Notice how Mick's bathead drops when his back elbow drops. No torque, no swivel.

        What would be the advantage of one stride over the other?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by MarkL View Post
          I take it you consider Lau Sr. "linear" ...why????here we go again....
          I'm not going to give his theories a name, I just think he's messed up. Guys from the 30's thru the 60's hit well and with power, and power numbers since 1995 are though the roof. In the 70's and 80's when a LOT of hitters were hitting with his methods, offense stunk.

          His ideas are 180 degrees from Ted Williams' and Ted hit for power and average and so did most of the good ones from the 50's and 60's. Lau's method produced no power and except for the above average hitter, the averages weren't that good either. Swinging down and trying to hit hard grounders just doesn't cut it for me.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by wrstdude View Post

            How you say one thing in the post dannyboy quotes, yet you're saying the exact opposite now.
            No, I'm not, you just don't seem to understand the movements.

            Just watch the video.

            BTW, can you show me where the bathead pivots around the hands?
            Last edited by jbooth; 04-01-2008, 11:54 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jbooth View Post
              No, I'm not, you just don't seem to understand the movements.

              Just watch the video.

              BTW, can you show me where the bathead pivots around the hands?
              How are those not contradictions?

              You said the bat head doesn't move when the elbow drops and now you're saying the elbow dictates the bat head movement.

              Obviously I'm not the only one who noticed this as someone else, dannyboy, pointed it out.

              Don't avoid my question by saying I don't understand the movements-that has nothing to do with it. Even if I didn't understand the movements, that doesn't take away from the fact, and the only point I brought up, that you TOTALLY contradicted yourself.

              I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

              Which is it? Are you changing your original stance? If so-just state as such.
              Last edited by wrstdude; 04-01-2008, 12:13 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by wrstdude View Post
                How are those not contradictions?

                You said the bat head doesn't move when the elbow drops and now you're saying the elbow dictates the bat head movement.

                Obviously I'm not the only one who noticed this as someone else, dannyboy, pointed it out.

                Don't avoid my question by saying I don't understand the movements-that has nothing to do with it. Even if I didn't understand the movements, that doesn't take away from the fact, and the only point I brought up, that you TOTALLY contradicted yourself.

                I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

                Which is it? Are you changing your original stance? If so-just state as such.
                I explained it in my 10 minute video and demonstrated it, because it is difficult to describe in writing.

                I can see where I made it confusing, but it isn't contradictory.

                Some of it depends on the hitters style, and also, the bathead essentially moves in two directions, so how much it moves in each direction depends on your stance style and how you move the elbow.

                Ryan Howard drops the elbow down a lot, yet the bathead moves very little, because his drop of the elbow does NOT ALSO move the knob.

                If, while moving the elbow, you move the knob, then the bathead will move. Like Killebrew does in the first shot of the video of MLB hitters.

                It's hard to describe, you just have to watch. Elbow, may not have been a good choice of body part to describe it.

                It's actually possible to hold the bat vertical and move the knob around underneath the bathead, and not have the bathead move very much, but it is also possible to move the knob out from under the head and have the bathead move a lot and follow the knob.

                Also, I should have said that as they move the elbow into slot, the bathead moves very little in an arc around toward he ball, it DOES move toward horizontal though. The shoulder turn moves the bathead toward the catcher, the elbow movement sets the bat on plane. It doesn't take much to get it on plane, therefore, the apparent contradiction arises. The elbow moves the knob which moves the bathead on plane, and then the rotation arcs the bathead around.

                It is very hard to describe in written words, but is that more clear?

                Just watch the slow motion swings and watch how the bathead, knob and elbow relate to each other.

                Comment


                • #23
                  An observation. Ryan Howard. If the back elbow drops down without a corresponding bat knob movement, then the angle formed by the bat and the rear forearm must increase.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                    An observation. Ryan Howard. If the back elbow drops down without a corresponding bat knob movement, then the angle formed by the bat and the rear forearm must increase.
                    Tell me what you see here;



                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Its amazing to see what a discussion on hitting technique has become. When I was playing LL (not all that long ago) it was see ball, hit ball.
                      See ball, hit ball.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dannyboy View Post
                        An observation. Ryan Howard. If the back elbow drops down without a corresponding bat knob movement, then the angle formed by the bat and the rear forearm must increase.
                        DB, I'm also curious to hear what you see happening here:

                        Last edited by BoardMember; 04-02-2008, 09:51 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Doesn't matter what Ryan does. He hit with power to all fields, in any park. Now an evaluation of Chase Utley's short compact swing would be interesting.
                          See ball, hit ball.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ?. I see the rear elbow separating from the bathead. I see an increase in the angle formed by the rear forearm and the bat when this happens.
                            Last edited by dannyboy; 04-03-2008, 07:26 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              In almost every swing, these hitters were at full extension/power v at contact. Even Ted Williams. Rose is really the only one that wasn't. Why is that? Am I seeing things?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                                In almost every swing, these hitters were at full extension/power v at contact. Even Ted Williams. Rose is really the only one that wasn't. Why is that? Am I seeing things?
                                Are you going through the clips frame by frame?

                                Mantle's back elbow is bent 90 degrees at the point of contact in this clip, but that's VERY hard to see with the naked eye.

                                Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

                                I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

                                Comment

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