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  • #16
    Originally posted by SimiBaseball View Post
    Why would they take a chance when the tying run is still in the dugout?
    I would think that they would want to take a few chances and score. Depending on how the ball rolls to the backstop, it can be easy to score on a pass ball from the catcher (on our diamond). There were a few times when they definitely could have scored had they been more agressive.

    When you're down by several runs, would you not be agressive on the bases, or just wait it out and hope that someone gets a big hit?

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    • #17
      When you're down by 5 it is time to gamble.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
        I would think that they would want to take a few chances and score. Depending on how the ball rolls to the backstop, it can be easy to score on a pass ball from the catcher (on our diamond). There were a few times when they definitely could have scored had they been more agressive.

        When you're down by several runs, would you not be agressive on the bases, or just wait it out and hope that someone gets a big hit?
        If you're down by 6 runs in the bottom of the last inning, there's really no good reason to try and score from 3rd base on a wild pitch, unless the bases are loaded. Unless you're 100% sure that you'll score, you should stay there.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ipitch View Post
          If you're down by 6 runs in the bottom of the last inning, there's really no good reason to try and score from 3rd base on a wild pitch, unless the bases are loaded. Unless you're 100% sure that you'll score, you should stay there.
          While that's technically true, I can see the benefit of it w/9-10 year olds. Momentum and psychology are so important at that age that scoring a run in that situation might give the team more hope that they can come back and therefore give them more confidence. The reverse could apply to the team in the field.

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          • #20
            I don't think your a jerk and you did'nt run up the score, as i read this i thought.. as coaches what is are job win the game or make "poor pitchers" good pitchers..

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            • #21
              I have been on both sides, and here is my take. The coach took it as a slap in the face when you were up by 4-5 runs, with your #2 or #3, and then you bring in your #1, to widen the lead. That was your big mistake, and I can understand why the coach was upset. Your intentions were good in trying to get your #5-6 pitchers work, but any coach that sees you bring in your #1 with a lead, knowing good and well you could wipe the floor with with them using your #2-3, is not going to be very understanding of your good intentions.

              I would recommend to start your #1, gain the advantage, then work at getting you #3-4-5 in. It will work more in your favor because if they get down against your #1, and then stairstep down to your other pitchers, they will start having success, and remember the end of the game, and not the beginning.

              Or you could just pummel them and let them know they have no business on the same field with your team, and not be concerned what the other coaches or fans think. Could help your team in the future by setting the tone.
              The Magicman Principle

              "Always look until you find video that can be used to prove your point, and when all else fails, bash someone"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by skipper5
                jbolt,
                Since 16-10 can't be considered running up the score, I've got to ask: what's your reputation among the other coaches in your league? Have you been considered over-competitive in the past--was the other coach reacting to your reputation instead of the game in front of him?

                Defining "over-competitive" is difficult, but most of us know it when we see it.
                To my knowledge I am well liked. The league president told me that he thinks I do a great job and wants to make sure I stick around for years to come (he heard I might want to move to a Pony League). I had about 8 other parents ask to be on my team when I was doing drafts because they said they heard I was a good coach. A few of my current parents have praised me for my fundamental work with the kids. I had other parents tell me that when I move up to the 11-12 division (Majors) that they want their sons back on my team. I do not believe I am considered to be overly-competitive.

                There is another coach that is good, but everyone thinks he is too competitive. All of the parents and coaches say they don't care what the end of the season looks like as long as they beat this one coach.

                I have spoken with several other coaches and they know that I have one of the top teams, but have never said anything about being too competitive (at least directly to me). And they all know that I am very easy going and do not offend easily so they can say pretty much whatever they want and I'll look at it objectively and not personally.

                The one thing I have noticed, however, is that there are three teams (one being from last night) that the coaches come from the lower division of Farm (7-8y/o coach pitch) and they seem to coach their kids with that Farm mentality. That might have something to do with it as well.

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                • #23
                  We have coaches sending runners on pass balls when up 17-1, but don't you dare score 14 runs with 14 rbi's against their team. I will never take the bat out of a kid's hand, no matter what the score, but I will sub for my big hitters. We try to even out the ab's as much as possible. Teach fundamentals, allow all players to develop at different positions, but always coach the TEAM to win. We tell our kids to give 110%. So why should it matter if player #1 or #9 is at short. Always coach 110%. We've had undefeated years with this philosophy and we've had .500 seasons, but our kids developed the most each year. Come all-stars and travel ball- go for the early win and save your pitchers and catchers.

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                  • #24
                    I think you did fine and had a good strategy. I think the other coach needs to get a hold of himself and just play the game. Its too bad that the game is full of emotions for the parents and especially the coaches, when its all about the kids. If you put in your poor pitchers as 2nd relief, you mighta lost the game. Then you would be upset, but even worse your parents would be upset which is unfortunate. Maybe you could have started your poor pitcher, even for 1/2 an inning, and as they got the lead, put in your 1st or 2nd pitcher. I think you did the best you could. And just by asking this question shows you care.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      In the overall scheme of things, it seems that what you did should be okay. With an early (3rd inning) 8-run lead, you put your best pitcher in for the bottom of a single inning with no other decent pitchers. Rather than bucking for a greater "cushion", it probably would have played better if you had put in your poor pitcher in the third inning, and held the #1 guy in reserve in case the weak kid really blew up. It probably would have been to your advantage anyway, because, with the way you did play it, if your weaker pitchers had really been rocked, you would have no one to come in and stop the carnage.

                      But I've got a lot to gripe about the opposing manager. Why did he feel a need to "apologize to his team and parents for what happened and that they just need to move on" in a six-run loss where they had a pretty impressive (but ill-fated) comeback? Sounds like he's a pretty gloom guy or just looking for a scapegoat to cover his inadequacies. For some reason, this seems to happen with many coaches when they come up to the 9-10 y/o level from coach pitch ball for the first time. They feel that they can finally let out their inner Vince Lombardi and gun for winning games, but can turn around and blast another coach for being too competitive in following a conventional strategy to win... and they don't see the internal inconsistency. It's still about having fun, being positive and teaching the game and teamwork at this age.

                      Since bringing in a good pitcher is by no definition "running up the score", I think it's a fair question to ask about your substitution patterns generally. Three years ago my son was the youngest player on a (11-12 y/o) team managed by a statistics professor. He gave the weaker players exactly their minimum playing time allotment, and only at positions where they wouldn't impact the game. His top five players never came out of the game. And, the team jumped to the top of the division from the starting gun and never relinquished the lead. And so other managers felt that they had to manage the same way to keep up, and the whole da*n league was skewed because of it, with a bunch of miserable players who weren't getting much playing time or responsibility. And when they won the title, the players weren't all that excited -- the good kids were exhausted and the weaker ones felt disengaged.

                      One of the best things you can do sometimes is to start a game with your best player on the bench in the first inning. Maybe even make him a base coach that inning, so that the whole world knows that (a) you're not overloading your lineup with the stars, and (b) that you're giving all players a sorta even shot at playing time.

                      Anyway, I'm off topic. Don't worry about it. You're not going to make everyone in your league like you. Go for the respect of those whose opinions you respect.
                      sigpicIt's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ursa Major View Post
                        In the overall scheme of things, it seems that what you did should be okay. With an early (3rd inning) 8-run lead, you put your best pitcher in for the bottom of a single inning with no other decent pitchers. Rather than bucking for a greater "cushion", it probably would have played better if you had put in your poor pitcher in the third inning, and held the #1 guy in reserve in case the weak kid really blew up. It probably would have been to your advantage anyway, because, with the way you did play it, if your weaker pitchers had really been rocked, you would have no one to come in and stop the carnage.
                        This was actually my initial strategy. I wanted to pitch my descent player, get a cushion lead, let two of my weaker pitchers throw, then close with my good pitcher. But we didn't get the lead I had hoped for and still wanted to get my weaker guys in there for some experience. When I decided I wanted to throw my better pitcher I knew I only had him for 40 pitches (pitch count rule) as I need him for the real tough game on Saturday. It was a risk that I had to take at the time. That is why I needed a higher score, I felt.

                        But I've got a lot to gripe about the opposing manager. Why did he feel a need to "apologize to his team and parents for what happened and that they just need to move on" in a six-run loss where they had a pretty impressive (but ill-fated) comeback? Sounds like he's a pretty gloom guy or just looking for a scapegoat to cover his inadequacies. For some reason, this seems to happen with many coaches when they come up to the 9-10 y/o level from coach pitch ball for the first time. They feel that they can finally let out their inner Vince Lombardi and gun for winning games, but can turn around and blast another coach for being too competitive in following a conventional strategy to win... and they don't see the internal inconsistency. It's still about having fun, being positive and teaching the game and teamwork at this age.
                        I am beginning to think that this is the case as well. I also think that he may have been upset that when they did get our gus out or started scoring that I didn't get upset and kept our kids having fun. There was one instance where they had a pass ball and my runner at third broke for home, well he ended up getting into an awesome pickle that went back and forth for about 30-45 seconds. In the end he was tagged out, but all the kids came out of the duggout and gave him a high five for having such a cool play, even though he was out. I have a feeling that the other team didn't like that we were still having fun even if it didn't go our way.

                        Since bringing in a good pitcher is by no definition "running up the score", I think it's a fair question to ask about your substitution patterns generally. Three years ago my son was the youngest player on a (11-12 y/o) team managed by a statistics professor. He gave the weaker players exactly their minimum playing time allotment, and only at positions where they wouldn't impact the game. His top five players never came out of the game. And, the team jumped to the top of the division from the starting gun and never relinquished the lead. And so other managers felt that they had to manage the same way to keep up, and the whole da*n league was skewed because of it, with a bunch of miserable players who weren't getting much playing time or responsibility. And when they won the title, the players weren't all that excited -- the good kids were exhausted and the weaker ones felt disengaged.
                        I am a firm believer in letting everyone get equal playing time, while still trying to win the game. This year the league has mandated a continuous batting order, so even if the kid is not playing on defense he still bats. I have some pretty weak players that are still learning (and improving). They get their at-bats, and I rotate them in as starters. If they start one game, they come out in the 3rd and if then go back in in the 5th. Then the next day they sit and go in on defense on in the 3rd and come out in the 5th. I have 14 kids on the team so I am substituting 5 kids each game. By the way - one of the kids that is substitued almost every game is my son. He is no all-star yet, and I think it is important for the other players and parents to see that I do not favor anyone. Out of 4 games he has played one entire game. This also goes for just about everyone.

                        There are two players that have not sat out any games. Monday was the first day they came out in the 3rd and stayed out for the rest of the game. I intentionally pulled out my best players as I knew that the cushion we had was safe enough to do so.

                        One of the best things you can do sometimes is to start a game with your best player on the bench in the first inning. Maybe even make him a base coach that inning, so that the whole world knows that (a) you're not overloading your lineup with the stars, and (b) that you're giving all players a sorta even shot at playing time.
                        I definitely plan on doing this more as we get further into the season and our lesser kids get more experience.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
                          I would think that they would want to take a few chances and score. Depending on how the ball rolls to the backstop, it can be easy to score on a pass ball from the catcher (on our diamond). There were a few times when they definitely could have scored had they been more agressive.

                          When you're down by several runs, would you not be agressive on the bases, or just wait it out and hope that someone gets a big hit?
                          Let's think it through. You are down by 6 runs in the last inning with a runner on 3B. In order for your team to tie, the guy at the plate, the guy on deck, and three guys in the dugout need to get on base and score. If that doesn't happen, you lose. If that does happen, your guy on 3B has a 100% chance of scoring. Does it really make sense to take even a 1% chance of running him into an out?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by skidiver View Post
                            While that's technically true, I can see the benefit of it w/9-10 year olds. Momentum and psychology are so important at that age that scoring a run in that situation might give the team more hope that they can come back and therefore give them more confidence. The reverse could apply to the team in the field.
                            This would be the only reason to do it. If you're successful, it could provide a psychological lift. If you run into an out, you look like an incompetent schlep.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SimiBaseball View Post
                              Let's think it through. You are down by 6 runs in the last inning with a runner on 3B. In order for your team to tie, the guy at the plate, the guy on deck, and three guys in the dugout need to get on base and score. If that doesn't happen, you lose. If that does happen, your guy on 3B has a 100% chance of scoring. Does it really make sense to take even a 1% chance of running him into an out?
                              I see your point, but do you then just play conservatively? Do you just wait for the pitcher to walk everyone in or wait for a big hit from one of your players (which none of the players had done before.)?

                              As it turned out, the end result was they had bases loaded with one out, the next batter popped up to first base for the second out. They tried to score on a pass ball with the next batter and the catcher tagged him out (fyi - I wouldn't do this with 2 outs). I still think it would have been ok to be a little more aggressive with no outs when they had the chance.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jbolt_2000 View Post
                                I see your point, but do you then just play conservatively? Do you just wait for the pitcher to walk everyone in or wait for a big hit from one of your players (which none of the players had done before.)?

                                As it turned out, the end result was they had bases loaded with one out, the next batter popped up to first base for the second out. They tried to score on a pass ball with the next batter and the catcher tagged him out (fyi - I wouldn't do this with 2 outs). I still think it would have been ok to be a little more aggressive with no outs when they had the chance.
                                The bottom line is, if you are down by 6 runs, you must have 6 baserunners to tie. You WILL need to get some hits and walks - no way around it (you cannot steal 1B). You cannot "manufacture" 6 runs without 6 baserunners. If you get 6 baserunners, the first three will score without taking any risk whatsoever. OUTS are your most precious resource in this situation. Why reduce your odds of getting 6 baserunners by running into one of those precious outs with a guy who would've scored anyway?

                                Comment

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