Right View Pro - Instructional tape - Hitting

[straightleg]

Hello
If anyone has watched the tape, would like to get you opinion of the material and the methods.

Thanks
Straightleg

[tom.guerry]

The side by side video functionality of rightview is good to have.

Here are some thoughts on the content/info as used in fastpitch-

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=63113

as presented in this video-

http://www.sportskool.com/videos/hitting

Mankin has a nice videoanalysis product with better info in my opinion at batspeed.com

[Mark H]

I agree the software comparison is excellent along with the ML hitter library. Mankin is a good read and certainly he was a pioneer but Tom and I differ on who to recommend at the top of the heap. I recommend Englishbey. You can register on the public side of his site for free. You can spend a long time reading on there. Especially in the video analysis section.

[swingbuilder]

I'll agree, englishbey is good for guys who dont know how to use and turn their bodies to swing. But you'll have to graduate beyond that to be a hitter. There is no adjustability in his teachings.

[Mark H]

I know I'm opening a can of stink worms, but exactly how do you define adjustability? Is that the Richard Schenk definition, your definition or exactly what does that mean since plenty of hitters Englishbey has worked with can hit all locations and speeds well.

[Slapper23]

Mark,

If those hitters do hit all locations and speeds well, I would say it is due to what Nyman used to talk about. That sometimes hitters just figure out the correct swing pattern on their own, despite the instruction they're receiving.

Mike

[Steve Englishbey]

Comments from one who DOES know what I teach.

"I would personally like to thank Steve for the most "incredible" hitting workshop that I have experienced. This guy is the most passionate, knowledgeable person that I have ever seen working with coaches, parents and young hitters. I have never seen anyone with as much energy!! It will take me a week to recover. Can you imagine 4 days of nothing but "talking about hitting" and body and bat positioning? The kids that Steve worked with were really excited about what they learned and displayed immediate improvement/understanding of the swing. If anyone out there has the opportunity to see Steve in action, please do so. You will not be disappointed. We're looking forward to getting him back in the Fall. I know that I will become a better instructor of young hitters because of the information that I learned from Steve. Thanks. "

These are comments from Ed Goodsen. Ed was a guy who "did it" pretty well--seeing that he played in the big leagues for about 10 years .[And who since then, has worked as a hitting instructor in VA.]


And he is also someone who has vastly more knowledge and understanding as to what I teach than does either Swingbuilder or Mike Kennedy [Slapper 23].

.
"If anyone out there has the opportunity to see Steve in action, please do so."

Full disclosure dictates that it should be known that Swingbuilder lives in Houston. And some time back I had ask him numerous times to come out on a field in Sugarland ,and I would show and demonstrate any number of things about the swing process that I teach and try to convey .

He did not ever take up my offer.

However ,that has not stopped him from watching my dvds----which he has said here publically that he takes with him on the road and has watched at least 100 times I think he said .

It should also be known that had ask me some time back to participate in some hitting clinics that he was involved in organizing .

And it should also be understood that he had asked me if I would want to work with some of the better high school players here in Houston that he was going to try to contact to work with on some kind of ongoing basis here in Houston.

As regards the comment from Swingbuilder --"There is no adjustability in his teachings"----aside from the fact that it would seem a bit "incongruous " with the above disclosures, the unimpeachable fact is that the better a hitter INITIATES the unloading ,the better chance they have to consistently "find a ball in space and hit it well ."

Something that happens ---as was recently demonstrated on a a TV program that deals with sports science-----in "one blink of an eye."

Literally.

How one learns to INITIATE the swing [unload] will greatly determine how effective they are in this "one blink of an eye " environment.

And I say this ,not just based on my teaching experience ,but as someone who has ACTUALLY had the experience of trying to hit high level pitching.

And the absolute fact is that MOST hitters I know and see at levels under the big leagues ,do NOT initiate [unload]the swing well .

Ten years of working with and observing hitters ---something that involves literally thousands of hours of experience ----is what has determined this conclusion on my part as to one of THE fundemental differences between elite hitters and everyone else.

And most certainly ,this inability to initiate the swing well on the part of most hitters ,has implications in terms of how I actually teach .And greatly determines what I try to convey in terms of what I consider vital to understand as regards developing a more effective swing .

Those who have worked with me ----guys like Ed Goodsen ---DO understand "where I am coming from " in terms of what I teach .

And I should also say here that there are numerous people who are on my website ,who have NOT worked directly with me ,but who have demonstrated an ability to take the information off the website [or off the dvds] and APPLY it .

How do I know this ?

I know it because they have put up their hitters on my website and over a period of time ,it became obvious that the trial and error process that they were engaged in was productive .

Or I know from commnets from people who are using the info in ways in which I can know that the info is being used in "smart " ways .

One such example is from a college coach who used the info .

And one of his comments was this :"We used in the off season just some of the basic stuff you talk about ,and everyone improved during the season.But one guy REALLY got it . He had never hit more than 6 home runs ....but his senior year he hit 20 HR's and was drafted . He really got the posture thing .HE LEARNED TO STAY DOWN ON MIDDLE OUT PITCHES ." [emphasis mine ].

Meaning ,of course ,that he learned to "adjust " to middle out and breaking pitches ,by STARTING [initiating ] the swing in a better manner.

And in the "blink of an eye " enrironmental constraints that hitters have to operate within, the stark difference between very effective unloading ---vrs. "creating chaos " at the start of the swing as Paul Nyman has described it ,is something that is vital to understand .

And physically understanding the difference between good vrs not so good unloading ,is one of the main factors involved how well one can "adjust" in a "blink of an eye."



steve

[tom.guerry]

very nice marketing, Steve.
What videoanalysis tools do you like ?

[tom.guerry]

Steve-

You said :

"And he is also someone who has vastly more knowledge and understanding as to what I teach "

My recollection is you told Richard/teacherman he had the most knowledge of your teaching.

Was/is that still true ?

[tom.guerry]

Steve-

You said:

"How one learns to INITIATE the swing [unload] will greatly determine how effective they are in this "one blink of an eye " environment."

I very much agree with that.

Swingbuilder said:


"There is no adjustability in his [your] teachings"

I also agree very much with that.

Good unloading requires ending with a last which well timed and directed torso stretch, same as the x-factor (golf) stretch or "cusp" (nyman) concepts.

The only successful way to do this in the MLB situation is by the lateral tilt of the shoulders to keep the hands back and form a stretch and fire of the torso that creates an optimal impact zone.

This is the "hands and hips" (upper body/shoulder tilt slaved to hands, lower body slaved to upper body, middle controlled by synch of two ends, somewhat separate upper and lower body programs with top down control,etc- the old Nyman theory before he got confused) pattern builder understands.

This is nothing like you and Nyman have described the swing in the past.

Have you revised your thinking ?

[swingbuilder]

Steve's comments are correct. I have talked with him about his teachings and I have studied his DVD's intently....and yes, he has invited me to come watch him work and to discuss the swing....and yes, I was going to get a few HS hitters together here in the Houston area for him to put his hands on during a yearly winter camp that I do in Houston that is a 4 weekend long camp done on both Saturday and Sunday. A camp that has produced some pretty good players and hitters to include a 1st round draft pick....then he tried strong holding me (over his website) and we had a very intense exchange on the phone right at two years ago.

He sent me his DVD's for free and he allowed me on his site for free believing 1) that I would transform to his beliefs and 2) that I could help him achieve a hitting job in pro baseball.....something he had hoped for from DMAC as well.

I'll also add that I did in fact tell a dozen hitting coordinators and minor league directors about Steve and his unfound passion for hitting. I have NEVER once said anything to the contrary to anyone in the profession of baseball.

I then proposed some thought in a thread on his site that involved the hands.....in which he called me and said he would not allow any topics or comments on the hands on his site. To which I agree'd and conformed. Then in another conversation a week or so later, in which he was hammering an ex colleague, he and I engaged in a heated exchange....thats right, I did not and will never back down to him or anyone else as so goes the swing and my beliefs of the Hands and the Hips and the importance they have in the swing and hitting.....

So I came to the conclusion that Steve was no longer interested in engaging with me the topic of hitting because of the phone exchange and the removal of me from his site. For me I was just reading the writing on the wall. I never lost a nights sleep over it.....I can respect a man for standing up for what he believes. Just don't discredit someone else when they don't elect to take on all those beliefs.

a discredit done is a discredit deserved.....Steve has elected to attempt to discredit the theory of the 2nd engine and the ability of the Hands and the Hips in the swing and hitting and in return I have said countless times that his swing teachings do not allow for "proper" adjustability to different speeds and locations....simply that big league hitters do not adjust to pitches and location by having a pre set spine nor do they connect the bat to the body and just turn like heck nor do they hold the hinge to unhinge.

I have also said numerous times that Steve would be great with raw and crude athlete's that have no idea how to use the body correctly in the swing process.

Then almost a year ago. I called Steve. He didnt answer....I'm sure he was either working out or teaching/ talking hitting....BUT, he did return my call and message. In which, we then talked in excess of two hours. I called him to get 'HIS TAKE" on a player that played HS baseball at the same HS that his son attended....That player was now attending a college out of state but was still living in the same place as when he attended HS. That player had become a very good hitter and was a 2nd round draft pick in last years draft. He was a bit surprised by the player in question...but he also couldn't remember much about him but did remember the kid.

The point of the matter is I'm every bit as hard headed and a bully as Steve is and the real unimpeachable fact is that the unloading can't happen until there is a load and that it isn't just about finding a ball in space but learning to be a consistent Chauffer in the batters box and a driver of the baseball....Something you can not do if you are tied in a knot!

[Steve Englishbey]

Once again ---for the record

Though I would hope that most people would not really care or pay much attention to what Swingbuilder has said above , he has said any number of things which are not at all in accord with the actual facts.

" He sent me his DVD's for free and he allowed me on his site for free believing 1) that I would transform to his beliefs and 2) that I could help him achieve a hitting job in pro baseball.....something he had hoped for from DMAC as well."

Other than the fact that I did infact send him my dvds free of charge,the rest of this statement is something that is derived from his own whimsical interpretations .

Simply put ,I sent the dvds to him for 2 basic reasons:

1] As a scout involved in analyzing players ,I thought he MIGHT be interested in gainig a better understanding as to "how the body works " in the context of the "underlying realities " involved in the swing process..

2] And I thought it MIGHT be potentially helpful to myself and Paul Nyman to have "my stuff" and Setpro related ideas and concepts better known at the professional baseball level.

As regards his comments of ---" that I could help him achieve a hitting job in pro baseball.....something he had hoped for from DMAC as well."
----this would be a complete fantasy on his part.

It is true that both Dmac and another individual with Montreal DID talk to the GM about me .This was TOTALLY done WITHOUT any prompting on my part.

They simply told me they were going to do it .

Though I MIGHT consider a job at a higher level if offered ,I have NEVER indicated to Dmac or Swingbuilder that I was aspiring to work at a higher level .Nor did I ask them to help me get a job at some higher level.Nor did I hint at this in any manner.

And the reason for this is pretty straightforward:I like what I do now and I very much enjoy who I work with now ,ie hitters of varying ages and varying abilities.

As to the reasons behind a couple of "heated exchanges " ,I will not even bother to respond ----beyond saying that he is very much incorrect in why they came about .

As regards this quote :

I then proposed some thought in a thread on his site that involved the hands.....in which he called me and said he would not allow any topics or comments on the hands on his site. To which I agree'd and conformed. "

This is also a misrepresentaion of the facts of the situation .

Here is some of what I ACTUALLY SAID as regards his notions as to the "hands" creating force ,momentum ,and movement in the context of swinging a bat :

" Jeff in your last post you essentially completely changed the subject ----going from "hands " are "engine no. 2" ,to now in this last post, you are talking about the "hand to elbow " link .Then expanding it to the hand-elbow -shoulder link .

Then saying that these added links create more than 10mph of batspeed.

Of course they do .But that was not your initial argument "hips and hands are the engines".

You cannot include these links[elbow/shoulder] when talking about how much energy "the hands " can generate .

And when talking about the hand /wrist link ,you are talking about grip and /or deviation ,ie.,wrist cocking /uncocking .

Those movements and those movements only are what the hands wrist can create .

And when you isolate the movement at this one joint [wrist] ---as with my experiment [no other body parts can move ---if other body parts aer moving then you are creating force/ momentum at joint other than the wrist ]----you will not be able to generate much more than 10mph .

And this is an issue that can be ---and has been -----quantified in at least 15 sources that I have [primarily golf studies ].

Thus we do not, nor should we ,rely on what you[or anyone else for that matter] "think" ,or "think you feel".

You ,me or anyone in the context of a full swing that lasts less than .2 seconds ,cannot suitably "estimate by feel " ,how much energy one isolated link is creating .[And the uncocking has been estimated at happening in 1/50th of a second.]

Fortunately ,we do not have to do this .It has been done by biomechnic guys and physics guy .

And if you reply to this you need to confine the 'hands as an engine " argument to that link's anatomical/physiological limitations .

You cannot rationally and logically add links to your "hand argument-------when you add links you no longer have a "hands as the second engine" argument."

And :as regards Swingbuilders insistence " ....."there are 2 engines that drive the swing.The hands and the hips " .....I said the following in response to this :

"Jeff if you want to refer to the "hands " as an "engine " ,well I suppose I cannot deter you from this apparently longstanding and heartfelt "cue".

But let me restate what I have variously stated here and elswhere by saying it in a different way.

To take an example of batspeed lets take a guy like Mark Maguire ---someone who has swung the bat at around 100 mph.

How is that batspeed created ?

About 85- 90 mph is a function of a very well directed and coordinated "impulse ", ie ., the rate of force developement , the time and distance that force is applied .That kind of large impulse can only come from the trunk.

About 10 -15 mph can be attributed to the deviation of the wrists [uncocking ].

And in a real swing ,this uncocking ,to really be effective ,has to be essentially perfectly timed such that this uncocking happens at a relatively precise moment in time and space -----at a point in space and time where the apex of this batspeed and momentum transfer "runs into the ball".

This kind of precision of timing and coordination is a function of ......."the system" ,brain,body ,nervous system.The brain knows what has to be done ,the muscle system is able to physically carry out this plan of action ,the nervous system coordinates and "directs all the neural traffic " involved in this kind of coordination .

So ,to state again, the "hands and hips " ,as a "cue " is ok .

But according to my standards-----standards which I started to try to understand and apply before I ran across Setpro, it does not pass muster in terms of having sufficient "explanatory power."

Meaning that by my standards which are a function of the totality of my experience [playing ,teaching , my own "swing experiments" over the last 8years,and applied science knowledge ], the "hands and hips " needs to remain within the realm of a "cue " .Because by my standards that I have set for myself ,and what I try to convey, it does not adequately reflect the reality of the swing process .

As somewhat of an aside ,there have been questions and comments about unhinging or uncocking the wrists from the standpoint of whether a hitter should actively try to uncock the wrist .Or should you confine the thoughts just trying to maintain the hinge angle for aslong as possible .

And I would say that I have little doubt that some really good hitters think in terms of actively trying to uncock the wrists .

This kind of "swing thought " may ,help some hitters better "finish " the swing.

I also have little doubt that other hitters have little concious thought about this uncocking action .

Others may conciously think about delaying the uncocking action.

However you think about this ,what good hitters are effectively doing amounts to creating and maintaining a 90 degree angle between the bat and front arm forearm for a relatively long time ,and they are unhinginhg or uncocking as"late " as possible .

My point here is that you can think of any number of ways in terms of "cues " ,and if the result is that it helps in creating good functioning ,it has served its purpose well ."

And in the same thread:

" Jeff thats been asked and answered .The hands provide grip strength . The wrist deviate [radial /ulnar] And you could have some flex/extend of the wrist but that has little to do with uncocking the wrists.

There's nothing beyond this .Not if you are talking about humans.

And:

"As stated numerous times now ,the hands /wrists can only do 2 moves ---grip , deviate .

Again ,in order to better understand/explain movement , you cannot violate the basic "rules and regulations " that govern how humans move .

And a basic "violation " would be to attribute "form and /or function " to body parts that goes beyond their structional and /or functional capabilities.

In this case ,continuing to attribute to "the hands " movement and strength ,that they are humanly incapable of creating ,is indeed one such "violation".

And I would hope that everyone understands that these "basic rules and regulations " are not my rules .I did not arbitrarily create them to suit my purposes.

What I am trying to do is to try to explain ,describe ,and understand the movement of athletes ,by using these "rules and regulations " ,and by not violating these rules and regualtions .

If we ,as teachers and instructors ,willfully or otherwise ,violate these rules and regualtions ,simply to suit our own purposes ,however benign those purposes may be ,what we are going to is create "instructional chaos "[which is pretty much what we have now ]."

Simply put ,Swingbuilder was using "cues " to try to explain "how the body works" ,and after numerous posts by him repeatedly confusing or not understanding the difference between "cues and reality " ,I simply closed the thread.

The information on my website is not "cue based."

From a conceptual standpoint ,my website is based on understanding what Paul Nyman has referred to as the "underlying realities " of the swing process.


And as he said some years back ,there is a big difference between "cues and reality."

And I am not going to let anyone come into my website and assert that their cues explain reality better than sources that come from experts in the fileds of sports sciences.

And it is THIS distinction between the two that I called Swingbuilder to personally explain .[Something that I dare say he SHOULD have allready known].



steve

[swingbuilder]

What Steve didn't realize and still doesn't realize is that he is not the only one who knows how the body works in a swing.

I have chosen to make the process as simple as possible. Much of the reason why I came up with the bottom line in the swing and hitting..."The Hands and the Hips drive the swing".

I have used this with hitters since 1988.

What I did say was "actual fact". "Repeatably" would be a stretch. A big stretch.

And this from the "MASTER of CUE".

I'll also add that I have no problem with Steve and his teaching practices or beliefs. if he were in a classroom teaching kids and he were to use the tools necessary to get his points across like he does with hitting then he would be a very successful teacher and one that would hold the attention of the children that he was teaching. He has tremendous passion, BUT, so do others. He believes he is on the right path. Again, something I do not have an issue with.

I do, however, have an issue with his group of assistant coaches (so to speak) that meet, talk, conf. call, plan to discredit many others who do not believe in the "tied in a knot" way of hitting and then to use a public site to so market those beliefs.

The bottom line is hitters center balls ALL the time. Swingers look good swinging yet can not hit.

[tom.guerry]

More good stuff from Steve:

"Simply put ,Swingbuilder was using "cues " to try to explain "how the body works" ,and after numerous posts by him repeatedly confusing or not understanding the difference between "cues and reality " ,I simply closed the thread."

"The information on my website is not "cue based."

"From a conceptual standpoint ,my website is based on understanding what Paul Nyman has referred to as the "underlying realities " of the swing process."

-------------------

Unlike swingbuilder, my opinion of the Nyman/Englishbey approach and information is FAR less forgiving.

This is BAD information IF your destination is the MLB pattern builder is describing.

teaching is by FEEL, not by describing a step by step objective route to be followed.

When you try that ("snipe hunt"), as Nyman has, you end up oversimplifying the natural MLB pattern and preventing progress to ward the MLB swing. Unnatural scientific priciples get overemphasized and prevent the learning of necessary feel to control the swing unless the supposedly OBJECTIVE info is ignored.

The Nyman./Englishbey info is at best a long detour/distraction from learning the MLB pattern.

Caveat lector.

Builder is being too nice with respect to how this "PCRW" info will interfere with learning the MLB swing.

[Mark H]

Unlike swingbuilder, my opinion of the Nyman/Englishbey approach and information is FAR less forgiving..

That's pretty good irony again Tom. Very good.

This is BAD information IF your destination is the MLB pattern builder is describing..

Opinion of an armchair critic.

teaching is by FEEL, not by describing a step by step objective route to be followed..

You mean like a 1,2,3 set of drills plus the fence drill? That kind of step by step?

When you try that ("snipe hunt"), as Nyman has, you end up oversimplifying the natural MLB pattern.

More good irony. Certainly oversimplification has never been something you have been accused of.

and preventing progress to ward the MLB swing. Unnatural scientific priciples.

Unnatural scientific principles? Exactly what is an unnatural scientific principle if such can be discussed on a board children read?

get overemphasized and prevent the learning of necessary feel to control the swing unless the supposedly OBJECTIVE info is ignored..

Yeah, every hitter has to convert good movement into an understanding of what it "feels" like to him or her. No problem there.

The Nyman./Englishbey info is at best a long detour/distraction from learning the MLB pattern.

Caveat lector.

Builder is being too nice with respect to how this "PCRW" info will interfere with learning the MLB swing.

You talk about the MLB swing, learning, feel and what's necessary. Serious question. How would you know? Did you see the part about Ed Goodson not only having played in MLB but, more importantly, he also does actual instruction. Like where you stand in front of someone and help them over time to become a better hitter monitoring their progress to make sure your ideas are working. That's what I'm talking about Tom. You and your buddy Richard have one confirmed student between you. I dare you Tom. Start instructing. When are you going to get with GoCardinals? How many times over how long a period will you get with him? As long as it takes I hope. You told him you would. Besides, you owe it to all the dads and kids out there who might actually listen to an arm chair theorist to make sure your ideas actually work.